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Thread: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    In order to have any real merit, the middle east needs to be liberalized, and THEN democratized.

    The process of democratization without liberalization only results in the power being reinvested in the traditional structures.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    In order to have any real merit, the middle east needs to be liberalized, and THEN democratized.

    The process of democratization without liberalization only results in the power being reinvested in the traditional structures.
    Oh, so they should have rights, but only when you fully approve of their beliefs?

    Does this mean, then, that social and religious conservatives in the U.S. should be deprived of the right to vote until they begin to vote in ways that you agree with?

    That seems rather hypocritical.

    "I believe in Democracy, but only for the people whose views are the same as my own."

    Lulz.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Oh, so they should have rights, but only when you fully approve of their beliefs?

    Does this mean, then, that social and religious conservatives in the U.S. should be deprived of the right to vote until they begin to vote in ways that you agree with?

    That seems rather hypocritical.

    "I believe in Democracy, but only for the people whose views are the same as my own."

    Lulz.
    It means I am smart enough to realize that true democracy is predicated upon various precepts that go beyond mere tyranny of the majority.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    [QUOTE=Catz Part Deux;1059259837]

    However, you can't force democracy on other people. The Iraqi people have to WANT IT. They have to want it so badly that they will kill or die for it. Democracy can't be handed to someone like a beautifully wrapped gift. They have to earn it, they have to build it, and they have to continually sacrifice to maintain it.
    I agree, but Democracy was not forced on the Iraqi people, they were just given the opportunity for democracy. And there are Islamists fighting against the democracy in Iraq who want to create a theocracy based on Sharia law and the Koran. These are the enemy of those Iraqis who do want Democracy, and of course they are the enemy of free people everywhere, which is why we have international terrorism.

    Iraq probably will never get there, because we (America) attempted to force the process without even understanding what they wanted and who they are. And, if they do get there, it won't be because of our stupidity and interference.
    Two operations were very successful in Iraq, which was the introduction of democracy and the elimination of Saddam Hussein.

    What happened in Iraq has been very successful and at one time few on the left would have predicted even a 4 on the democratic scale. They were all about 'quagmires' and Vietnam. Those who are critical of what happened in Iraq had either unrealistic expectations or who were against any action in Iraq right from the beginning and are now all sour grapes.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    It is one of the higher numbers in the region...but not by much. Certainly not by enough to justify a war to promote it there. If we merely wanted to help democratize a country to serve as a shining example of Arab democracy, Iraq was just about the worst choice: It has large oil reserves, a low GDP per capita, and sectarian conflicts. We would have been far better off picking one of the ones that is revolting now: Tunisia, Egypt, Jordan.

    Here are the Democracy Index scores for all Arab states:


    Lebanon 5.82
    Palestine 5.44
    Iraq 4.00
    Kuwait 3.88
    Mauritania 3.86
    Morocco 3.79
    Jordan 3.74
    Bahrain 3.49
    Algeria 3.44
    Qatar 3.09
    Egypt 3.07
    Oman 2.86
    Tunisia 2.79
    Yemen 2.64
    United Arab Emirates 2.52
    Sudan 2.42
    Syria 2.31
    Libya 1.94
    Saudi Arabia 1.84


    And here are the Democracy Indices of some non-Arab states for comparison:

    Denmark 9.52
    United States 8.18
    India 7.28
    Turkey 5.73
    Russia 4.26
    China 3.14
    North Korea 1.08

    Thanks for that, Kandahar.

    So, all in all, Iraq isn't doing too badly, and doesn't seem to justify all the criticisms it receives.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    "4. Don't be a jerk - This simply means what it sounds like."

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/forum-...post1058778610
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Thanks for that, Kandahar.

    So, all in all, Iraq isn't doing too badly, and doesn't seem to justify all the criticisms it receives.
    I note that the Palestinians are doing even better. Imagine, Hamas and Fatah getting something right!
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    I note that the Palestinians are doing even better. Imagine, Hamas and Fatah getting something right!
    Well they live next door to one of the greatest democracies in the world. They should have gained a few tips.

    In fact all the peoples of the Middle East should have been paying attention to see the benefits democracy brings..

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Something Iraq currently is not.
    Of course it is. They have independent institutions to secure the democracy. It is not a fig leaf covering an authoritarian regime. All people of Iraq has representation and deals and negotiation is occurring.


    Yes?
    Proves there is a free press, which you claimed was not the case.


    Wait, so now your saying Iraq didn't influence the need for protests but the Arabs will look to Iraq as a political model? Do you mean parliamentary democracy?
    This is what I have been saying. But even more, Iraq will be a model for political transformation to a democracy. Other instances of democracies do not provide a recent example of transition. There are more than one cause for this. It is not black and white. Events in Iraq, and very importantly to the region, the coverage of these events by Al Jazeera, provide this model of transformation.

    What do you think of Al Jazeera? It is in a VERY UNIQUE position within the region. Can you say PsyOps?

    Turkey has also influenced them, arguably more. The protests where started because of the economic situation specific to there nation. They look at Iraq and see a nation with far more economic problems then them. I could say Turkey on the other hand, did. It is economically stable, and expanding. Democracy was domestically achieved there, not imported. Its foreign policy is far reaching, its military is strong, its judiciary independent.
    Turkey is non-Arab and does not provide a recent example of transformation.

    But im merely speculating, as you are. Only you talk with a flawed conviction.
    Then is it your position that events in Iraq over the past 7 years have had NO IMPACT on events in the region or the protests within Tunisia and Egypt? How do we evaluate that impact? The only thing that comes to my mind is opinion surveys of folks in the Arab world.

    If Iraq inspired them, why protest now?

    There own plight inspired them.
    As I said, both Iraq as a model and internal, local conditions and example of protests in Tunisia all fomented the current protests in Egypt.


    Are you not aware of what is happening?
    Explain the connection to Turkey, with the protests in Egypt.

    The impact of Turkey will be to help democratization of ME countries as Turkey's influence grows over the region to counter Iran and re-establish a pseudo-Ottoman Empire again. The economy, literacy, and diplomacy will dominate the ME over the next 30 years. Turkey unequivocally supports the opposition to these dictatorships.


    It took egyptians to topple the interior ministers fascism, not an external power.
    I don't understand your point. Please explain.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Seem to be of the opinion?

    You make a very foolish statement and then have to guess at my opinion, despite them being right out there?

    HAving the US invade anywhere in the Middle East is a non-starter.

    The only way anythng could possible improve in the ME would be to ask for some ouutside help and advice, which will also never happen.

    So we will therefore see more killings, like the ones Laila is calling for, more political upheavals, and more deaths.

    And no democracy.
    Thats your personal opinion....even though history would tell us what your saying is wrong.

    The nations the US has meddled in the most are actually by and far everything but democratic. Iran, Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan....and the list goes on.

    The only way anything has ever changed is when the people demand it. The people are currently demanding Democracy in Tunisia and Egypt. And when you pull your patriotism aside, you will see it was done entirely on their own merit.
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