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Thread: "Don't ask, don't tell" cost tops $50,000 per expulsion, study finds

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    Re: "Don't ask, don't tell" cost tops $50,000 per expulsion, study finds

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    What I wonder, is how you can totally ignore what people are telling you and basing your opinion completely on a poll, or something.
    I've heard people on both sides of the issue, so no i'm not ignoring what people are telling me. In addition it was not a "poll" but an comprehensive survey. Polls and Surveys are an attempt to gauge and know more about REALITY. The REALITY is that the majority of combat arms ground troops are against gays openly serving, I don't deny that. REALITY also states that the vast majority of combat vets who have experience serving with gays see no need for such a policy. Why is there such a huge difference?

    A poll or survey is going to give you a much more comprehensive and holistic view of the situation. I don't understand why you think your own hearsay and personal experience somehow trumps the personal experiences of many other people taken together. If everyone who lives around me, and all my friends and relatives, say "Obama rocks, his is the best Prez-o-dent evaaaa!" but the polls say that his approval rating isn't that hot, am i really supposed to believe the former over the latter? Similar situation.

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    Re: "Don't ask, don't tell" cost tops $50,000 per expulsion, study finds

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    I've heard people on both sides of the issue, so no i'm not ignoring what people are telling me. In addition it was not a "poll" but an comprehensive survey. Polls and Surveys are an attempt to gauge and know more about REALITY. The REALITY is that the majority of combat arms ground troops are against gays openly serving, I don't deny that. REALITY also states that the vast majority of combat vets who have experience serving with gays see no need for such a policy. Why is there such a huge difference?

    A poll or survey is going to give you a much more comprehensive and holistic view of the situation. I don't understand why you think your own hearsay and personal experience somehow trumps the personal experiences of many other people taken together. If everyone who lives around me, and all my friends and relatives, say "Obama rocks, his is the best Prez-o-dent evaaaa!" but the polls say that his approval rating isn't that hot, am i really supposed to believe the former over the latter? Similar situation.
    The people on your side have a totally different experience than the people on the other side. The biggest difference being, the people on the opposite side of the issue from you are the ones--for the most part--with the most experience in that type of environment. The only evidence that you're able to produce that counters this first hand experience, is a poll, with dubious numbers. Plus, we're all homophobes and bigots for not agreeing with your side of the argument.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: "Don't ask, don't tell" cost tops $50,000 per expulsion, study finds

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    What I wonder, is how you can totally ignore what people are telling you and basing your opinion completely on a poll, or something.
    Plenty of people have given you first hand experience working with openly gay personnel and provided polls that indicate strongly that even most combat troops who have actually worked with openly gay personnel did not find it to cause any issues.

    And some times it is prudent to ignore what others tell you. Fear of the unknown can lead people to begin to believe things that are not true or, at the very least, have no evidence to support that they will likely come to pass. The same things were said by experienced combat personnel when the military was desegregated. The military was able to survive past that with few issues. The military will survive past this, especially since the homosexuals are already serving in those units now.

    You have no actual proof that allowing gays to serve openly will affect unit morale or cohesion. From what you have said, you haven't even worked with openly gay military personnel. Unless you actually have and have seen major issues because of this, then you have no actual experience to back up your "fears". You are simply arguing based on your fears of what might happen.
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    Re: "Don't ask, don't tell" cost tops $50,000 per expulsion, study finds

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Plenty of people have given you first hand experience working with openly gay personnel and provided polls that indicate strongly that even most combat troops who have actually worked with openly gay personnel did not find it to cause any issues.

    And some times it is prudent to ignore what others tell you. Fear of the unknown can lead people to begin to believe things that are not true or, at the very least, have no evidence to support that they will likely come to pass. The same things were said by experienced combat personnel when the military was desegregated. The military was able to survive past that with few issues. The military will survive past this, especially since the homosexuals are already serving in those units now.

    You have no actual proof that allowing gays to serve openly will affect unit morale or cohesion. From what you have said, you haven't even worked with openly gay military personnel. Unless you actually have and have seen major issues because of this, then you have no actual experience to back up your "fears". You are simply arguing based on your fears of what might happen.
    All but one of the ground unit vets on this forum tell a different story than you do.

    And some times it is prudent to ignore what others tell you.
    If 8 people tell you that you're ass is on fire and 2 people tell you that it's not. Who you gonna believe?
    Last edited by apdst; 01-24-11 at 05:11 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: "Don't ask, don't tell" cost tops $50,000 per expulsion, study finds

    Quote Originally Posted by repeter View Post
    First, do you want to back up your claim that these soldiers only claim to be gay so that they could get out under DADT? No, thats alright, I know you can't. And as much as it happens in the military, its an exception not a rule.

    Second, are you seriously insulting gay/lesbian men and women in uniform as being sub-par translators???

    Lastly, every soldier counts.
    I have actually wondered if anybody used the Don't Ask Don't Tell Policy to get out of the military... I remember Pauly Shore tried to do it in that movie. OMG I can't stand Pauly Shore.. he was so annoying and unfunny.

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    Re: "Don't ask, don't tell" cost tops $50,000 per expulsion, study finds

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    All but one of the ground unit vets on this forum tell a different story than you do.
    None of the combat vets have actually admitted to working with openly gay personnel, that I can recall. And if one did, and they still think that allowing gays to serve openly will affect morale/unit cohesion, they have not given the exact reasons why they believe this or what the circumstances are that led them to such a conclusion based just on them working with the openly gay personnel.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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    Re: "Don't ask, don't tell" cost tops $50,000 per expulsion, study finds

    The biggest difference being, the people on the opposite side of the issue from you are the ones--for the most part--with the most experience in that type of environment.
    They apparently also have the most experience in not having known much about gays, instead relying on stereotypes and prejudice for benchmarks, thus, their opinion should not be taken at face value because the information their opinion is based on is incomplete:

    "Repeatedly, we heard service members express the view that 'open' homosexuality would lead to widespread and overt displays of effeminacy among men, homosexual promiscuity, harassment and unwelcome advances within units,
    The only evidence that you're able to produce that counters this first hand experience, is a poll, with dubious numbers.
    Statistically significant survey gathering an over 30% response rate = dubious? Can you prove how the numbers are dubious? Do you know anything about statistics? Seems numbers are only dubious when you disagree with them.

    Plus, we're all homophobes and bigots for not agreeing with your side of the argument.
    Pretty much. I have no problem with calling a spade a spade. Until you can actually prove to me that the existence of open gays in the military actually contributes to a decline in unit cohesion, it seems bigotry and prejudice serves as the basis for your opinion. The experience of every other nation that has undergone this process (including our allies Canada, the UK and Israel, who possess militaries just as professional as ours supposedly is and possess a common culture with ours), runs counter to your opinion. In any case DADT has been repealed and which side of the argument is correct will soon be revealed.

    And even if it does decrease unit cohesion, you have to wonder, is it the gay's fault that unit cohesion has decreased? Or is it the homophobe's fault for not being a professional and realizing that gayness has no bearing on job performance?
    Last edited by StillBallin75; 01-24-11 at 05:20 PM.

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    Re: "Don't ask, don't tell" cost tops $50,000 per expulsion, study finds

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron River View Post
    Seems to me that you could have looked at what I said –“they may have done that to get out.” – before you asked me to back up a statement that I didn’t make.

    I believe that I said that a boy in a dress wouldn't get much interpreting done in the Middle East.

    I don’t know where you served but in the Air Force in the bomb dump about 15% of our guys didn’t count for much.
    When people complain about DADT or gay people in general, why do they just complain about gay men and NEVER women?

    I have noticed it in all these threads... People seem to worry more about gay men serving openly more than gay women... I think it's weird, espically since this policy kicked both men and women out.

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    Re: "Don't ask, don't tell" cost tops $50,000 per expulsion, study finds

    All but one of the ground unit vets on this forum tell a different story than you do.
    I see. And most of you have worked with gays? And the few of you taken together are somehow a representative sample size?

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    Re: "Don't ask, don't tell" cost tops $50,000 per expulsion, study finds

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    None of the combat vets have actually admitted to working with openly gay personnel, that I can recall. And if one did, and they still think that allowing gays to serve openly will affect morale/unit cohesion, they have not given the exact reasons why they believe this or what the circumstances are that led them to such a conclusion based just on them working with the openly gay personnel.
    You're juuuuust about to figure it out.

    The problem isn't with gays serving openly. We've already explained to you what problems are going to arise. You swear up-n-down that we don't know what we're talking about, so there's no need to get back into it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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