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Thread: "Don't ask, don't tell" cost tops $50,000 per expulsion, study finds

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    Re: "Don't ask, don't tell" cost tops $50,000 per expulsion, study finds

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    There is no measurement that has 99% of any branch in agreement on the issue.
    Overwhelmingly, those with experience serving with someone they know to be gay found that it did not cause a problem. You're big on experience, right? This includes front-line combat units.

    You're not stupid, but you're a smaller minority than you think and if you'd served with someone you know to be gay there's a statistically high chance that you would have found it to be no big deal.

    But hey, good job on keeping the whole persecution complex going.
    99% of the ground unit vets on this forum tell the same story. Most soldiers and marines, that serve in combat arms units say the same thing we are saying. The Commandant of The Marine Corps and the Army Chief of Staff says what we're saying.

    I guess you know more about it than we do? We know you're right, but we're just a buncha homophobes? Am I close?

    I'm sorry, but civilian polls and annecdotes are evidence enough to trump what the people who have been there and done that are saying.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: "Don't ask, don't tell" cost tops $50,000 per expulsion, study finds

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Have you served in the military at all?

    99% of the Army and Marine Corps vets, plus the one, or two Air Force and Navy vets that have seen actual action, or served in some SF role tell you one thing, but ya'll constantly say we're wrong and drag out the same ole lame ass arguments and speculations. We're all just stupid, or what?
    Have you met 99% of Army and Marine Corps vets? Does your personal experience somehow trump a stastistically significant survey? I can gather various news articles describing the experience of combat vets in the Army, Marine Corps, and SF who say that serving with gays isn't a problem. You seem to think that anecdotes somehow are more informative than data. Also, just because someone has an opinion doesn't mean that opinion is based in reality.

    From the lips of the people who conducted the survey itself:
    Those concerns are "driven by misperceptions and stereotypes about what it would mean if gay service members were allowed to be 'open' about their sexual orientation," the report's authors concluded. "Repeatedly, we heard service members express the view that 'open' homosexuality would lead to widespread and overt displays of effeminacy among men, homosexual promiscuity, harassment and unwelcome advances within units, invasions of personal privacy, and a small overall erosion of standards of conduct, unit cohesion and morality."
    Like I said, over 80% of ground combat vets who had actually had working experience with gays had positive or neutral experiences. The sentiments expressed above are indicative of people prejudging and stereotyping, rather than being based on any objective knowledge of what working with gays would actually be like.

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    Re: "Don't ask, don't tell" cost tops $50,000 per expulsion, study finds

    the problem isn't when there are two gay men, it's when there are three; and two of them are in a relationship... until one of them decides to cheat on his partner with a third.

    and so on and so forth. the problems that come with the introduction of sexuality into a unit are legion, from jealousy, to cliqueishness, to backbiting, to distraction.
    Wouldn't this still be a problem even if homosexuals were "secretly" rather than "openly" gay? (In other words, wouldn't this still be a problem whether or not DADT is in place? Gays have exceptionally good gaydar).

    Also, would or would this not be a violation of the UCMJ's provisions regarding fraternization within the ranks?

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    Re: "Don't ask, don't tell" cost tops $50,000 per expulsion, study finds

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    99% of the ground unit vets on this forum tell the same story. Most soldiers and marines, that serve in combat arms units say the same thing we are saying. The Commandant of The Marine Corps and the Army Chief of Staff says what we're saying.

    I guess you know more about it than we do? We know you're right, but we're just a buncha homophobes? Am I close?

    I'm sorry, but civilian polls and annecdotes are evidence enough to trump what the people who have been there and done that are saying.
    The poll I'm talking about was done by the military and surveyed military personnel. Yes, a majority of combat units agree with you... unless they have actual experience serving with people they know to be gay, at which point they say it doesn't matter. My opinion is based on those of people with the actual experience of serving with homosexuals.

    Again with the persecution complex. It's funny that you talk about anecdotes while spouting your own. Everything I've said comes from actual studies.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: "Don't ask, don't tell" cost tops $50,000 per expulsion, study finds

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Have you met 99% of Army and Marine Corps vets? Does your personal experience somehow trump a stastistically significant survey? I can gather various news articles describing the experience of combat vets in the Army, Marine Corps, and SF who say that serving with gays isn't a problem. You seem to think that anecdotes somehow are more informative than data. Also, just because someone has an opinion doesn't mean that opinion is based in reality.

    From the lips of the people who conducted the survey itself:


    Like I said, over 80% of ground combat vets who had actually had working experience with gays had positive or neutral experiences. The sentiments expressed above are indicative of people prejudging and stereotyping, rather than being based on any objective knowledge of what working with gays would actually be like.
    That's where the trick math comes into play. The percentage of, "ground combat vets", who have had, "working experience", with openly gay soldiers is very small.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: "Don't ask, don't tell" cost tops $50,000 per expulsion, study finds

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    The poll I'm talking about was done by the military and surveyed military personnel. Yes, a majority of combat units agree with you... unless they have actual experience serving with people they know to be gay, at which point they say it doesn't matter. My opinion is based on those of people with the actual experience of serving with homosexuals.

    Again with the persecution complex. It's funny that you talk about anecdotes while spouting your own. Everything I've said comes from actual studies.
    I guess the vets on this board are just stupid, right? That, or we're lieing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: "Don't ask, don't tell" cost tops $50,000 per expulsion, study finds

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    That's where the trick math comes into play. The percentage of, "ground combat vets", who have had, "working experience", with openly gay soldiers is very small.
    Sure they might be a small percentage, but they are still there. However the large difference in attitudes is rather interesting, no? Wonder what's at work there...
    Last edited by StillBallin75; 01-24-11 at 04:39 PM.

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    Re: "Don't ask, don't tell" cost tops $50,000 per expulsion, study finds

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Sure they might be a small percentage, but they are still there. However the large difference in attitudes is rather interesting, no?
    You're just trying to trick people into thinking that most people in the combat arms think like you do and it's just not true.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: "Don't ask, don't tell" cost tops $50,000 per expulsion, study finds

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    You're just trying to trick people into thinking that most people in the combat arms think like you do and it's just not true.
    I never said anything like that. Obviously most people in the combat arms don't (IIRC 60% of infantry Marines were against). But the small percentage of people who have actually interacted with gays do. Kinda makes you wonder doesn't it?

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    Re: "Don't ask, don't tell" cost tops $50,000 per expulsion, study finds

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    I never said anything like that. Obviously most people in the combat arms don't (IIRC 60% of infantry Marines were against). But the small percentage of people who have actually interacted with gays do. Kinda makes you wonder doesn't it?
    What I wonder, is how you can totally ignore what people are telling you and basing your opinion completely on a poll, or something.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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