Page 5 of 19 FirstFirst ... 3456715 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 50 of 184

Thread: "Don't ask, don't tell" cost tops $50,000 per expulsion, study finds

  1. #41
    Sage
    roguenuke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Last Seen
    Today @ 09:53 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    28,947

    Re: "Don't ask, don't tell" cost tops $50,000 per expulsion, study finds

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Anyone that's actually been in the military, especially a battle hardened vet like cpwill,
    You guys really need to get over yourselves. I might have only been in the Navy, but I also have experience working alongside openly gay men and women on the carrier who had no problems fitting in well enough with the rest of the department, including sleeping and showering with those other guys and girls in berthing. And we actually did have the room to at least move the gay men to their own berthing. But it wasn't necessary. Our chain of command and the majority of people within the ranks were able to ensure that everyone in the department understood that we were there to do a job and as long as a person did their job to the best of their ability, most could care less what the sex of the person that someone else wanted to be in a relationship was.

    I believe that this is the unit cohesion that is good for any unit. If you guys would promote this type of stuff in your own units (those who are in them) and stop complaining so much about what might happen, then we would most likely see very little problems at all, especially that might get someone killed.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  2. #42
    Sage
    cpwill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    USofA
    Last Seen
    Today @ 09:52 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    57,124

    Re: "Don't ask, don't tell" cost tops $50,000 per expulsion, study finds

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    As always, prove the first part about admitting open homosexuals reduces cohesion.
    absolutely they will, the same as women do now.

    sexual tension in a unit = reduced cohesion. it's almost a tautology.



    (apdst: )
    Last edited by cpwill; 01-23-11 at 04:14 PM.

  3. #43
    Sage
    roguenuke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Last Seen
    Today @ 09:53 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    28,947

    Re: "Don't ask, don't tell" cost tops $50,000 per expulsion, study finds

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    absolutely they will, the same as women do now.

    sexual tension in a unit = reduced cohesion. it's almost a tautology.



    (apdst: )
    False correlation.

    First, homosexuals serve in combat units now, and always have. Women do not and have not served in US combat units.

    Second, the majority of men and women are heterosexual. This means that with a unit of 50 personnel, if 3 were women (say, 1 gay, 2 straight) and 2 were homosexual men and the rest were heterosexual men, the chances of an actual relationship starting between anyone is most likely to happen between one or both of the two straight women and one or more of the 45 straight men. The two straight women have a choice of 45 men (with everyone's sexuality known). The one gay woman doesn't have a choice of anyone in the unit being compatible with her sexuality. The two gay men only have a choice of each other. And the 45 straight men have a choice of 2 women.

    This even covers the likelihood of sexual tension between personnel, to an extent. It is certainly possible that there could be some tension if one of the gay guys finds himself attracted to one of the straight guys, but since we already expect our servicemembers to be adults and act professionally, then it should also be expected of gay men (as it already is of straight men in mixed units) that when someone is not interested in a relationship, for whatever reason, then the person wanting the relationship should not harass the other person and find someone else.

    Also, you need to actually prove that a) sexual tension causes a significant reduction in cohesion, b) the sexual tension between sexualities is comparable to that between opposite sexes in a mostly heterosexual environment with mixed genders, and c) there are not other rules/policies in place that deal with any tension that some may face that could significantly affect unit cohesion. So far, everyone has speculation, no one has proof.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  4. #44
    Basketball Nerd
    StillBallin75's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Vilseck, Germany
    Last Seen
    12-10-17 @ 07:52 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    21,896

    Re: "Don't ask, don't tell" cost tops $50,000 per expulsion, study finds

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    absolutely they will, the same as women do now.

    sexual tension in a unit = reduced cohesion. it's almost a tautology.



    (apdst: )
    cpwill, personal question have you actually served with a Marine that was openly gay? According to the survey conducted by the DoD, although the majority of combat arms Marines opposed repeal, over 80% who had actually served with a member they knew was gay supported the repeal. This suggest to me that it's fear of the unknown that's responsible for the differences in attitudes.

  5. #45
    Sage
    apdst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bagdad, La.
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:55 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    76,496

    Re: "Don't ask, don't tell" cost tops $50,000 per expulsion, study finds

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    You guys really need to get over yourselves. I might have only been in the Navy, but I also have experience working alongside openly gay men and women on the carrier who had no problems fitting in well enough with the rest of the department, including sleeping and showering with those other guys and girls in berthing. And we actually did have the room to at least move the gay men to their own berthing. But it wasn't necessary. Our chain of command and the majority of people within the ranks were able to ensure that everyone in the department understood that we were there to do a job and as long as a person did their job to the best of their ability, most could care less what the sex of the person that someone else wanted to be in a relationship was.

    I believe that this is the unit cohesion that is good for any unit. If you guys would promote this type of stuff in your own units (those who are in them) and stop complaining so much about what might happen, then we would most likely see very little problems at all, especially that might get someone killed.
    So, when you were in the field, you drank from the same canteen as the rest of your squad? Shared eating utensils with another soldier, because his MRE was the 1-in-a-100,000 that they forgot to put a little plasstic spoon in? When you went to the arctic warfare school, in Ft. Wainwright, Alaska and it was 20 below, did you share fart sacks with your squad to stay warm? When you were at the jungle warfare school, in Panama, did you wear another soldier's dirty socks, because all your's were wet? How about when you took the combat lifesaver's course and you had to start an actual IV on your buddy? You did that? Wash your ass in the same bucket of water as three other dudes, because that was all the water there was to spare for personal hygene?

    Because, if you didn't, you really don't have a clue what you're talking about when it comes to unit cohesion.

    You need to seriously examine your comments, when people who have actually served in combat and/or combat oriented units tell you something totally opposite of what you're saying.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  6. #46
    Sage
    apdst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bagdad, La.
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:55 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    76,496

    Re: "Don't ask, don't tell" cost tops $50,000 per expulsion, study finds

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    cpwill, personal question have you actually served with a Marine that was openly gay? According to the survey conducted by the DoD, although the majority of combat arms Marines opposed repeal, over 80% who had actually served with a member they knew was gay supported the repeal. This suggest to me that it's fear of the unknown that's responsible for the differences in attitudes.
    Have you served in the military at all?

    99% of the Army and Marine Corps vets, plus the one, or two Air Force and Navy vets that have seen actual action, or served in some SF role tell you one thing, but ya'll constantly say we're wrong and drag out the same ole lame ass arguments and speculations. We're all just stupid, or what?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  7. #47
    Sage
    cpwill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    USofA
    Last Seen
    Today @ 09:52 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    57,124

    Re: "Don't ask, don't tell" cost tops $50,000 per expulsion, study finds

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    homosexuals serve in combat units now, and always have.
    yes, however, prior to this they weren't allowed to be open, which meant no relationships and no real possibility therein, which translated to the effect on the unit being as though there were none. that was the elegance of the DADT compromise which it's opponents so blithely ignored.

    Women do not and have not served in US combat units.
    and thank goodness. because where they go, such issues inevitably arise; and the combat units don't have the time to afford for such things.

    Second, the majority of men and women are heterosexual. This means that with a unit of 50 personnel, if 3 were women (say, 1 gay, 2 straight) and 2 were homosexual men and the rest were heterosexual men, the chances of an actual relationship starting between anyone is most likely to happen between one or both of the two straight women and one or more of the 45 straight men. The two straight women have a choice of 45 men (with everyone's sexuality known). The one gay woman doesn't have a choice of anyone in the unit being compatible with her sexuality. The two gay men only have a choice of each other. And the 45 straight men have a choice of 2 women.
    the problem isn't when there are two gay men, it's when there are three; and two of them are in a relationship... until one of them decides to cheat on his partner with a third.

    and so on and so forth. the problems that come with the introduction of sexuality into a unit are legion, from jealousy, to cliqueishness, to backbiting, to distraction.

    Also, you need to actually prove that a) sexual tension causes a significant reduction in cohesion
    really? in a world in which commanding generals have to say "oh by the way, even though we've ordered ya'll not to screw each other in country, there are too many females getting pregnant and so if you do we're gonna charge you" i have to demonstrate a reduction in cohesion?

    take a bunch of mixed-gender 18-21 year olds. put them close together in a highly stressful situation. they will think with their private parts.

    b) the sexual tension between sexualities is comparable to that between opposite sexes in a mostly heterosexual environment with mixed genders
    if we are to believe some of the statistics floating around there about the average number of partners for a homosexual male the problem is arguably worse.

    c) there are not other rules/policies in place that deal with any tension that some may face that could significantly affect unit cohesion.
    this is sort of like arguing that you can regulate "no being human".

  8. #48
    Sage
    cpwill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    USofA
    Last Seen
    Today @ 09:52 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    57,124

    Re: "Don't ask, don't tell" cost tops $50,000 per expulsion, study finds

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    cpwill, personal question have you actually served with a Marine that was openly gay?
    openly? i don't know if you'd call it openly. everyone pretty much knew, and everyone pretty much pretended like they didn't, and the persons in question never allowed it to come out openly in such a manner that the chain couldn't help but deal with it.

  9. #49
    Outer space potato man

    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 11:13 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    51,830

    Re: "Don't ask, don't tell" cost tops $50,000 per expulsion, study finds

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Have you served in the military at all?

    99% of the Army and Marine Corps vets, plus the one, or two Air Force and Navy vets that have seen actual action, or served in some SF role tell you one thing, but ya'll constantly say we're wrong and drag out the same ole lame ass arguments and speculations. We're all just stupid, or what?
    There is no measurement that has 99% of any branch in agreement on the issue.
    Overwhelmingly, those with experience serving with someone they know to be gay found that it did not cause a problem. You're big on experience, right? This includes front-line combat units.

    You're not stupid, but you're a smaller minority than you think and if you'd served with someone you know to be gay there's a statistically high chance that you would have found it to be no big deal.

    But hey, good job on keeping the whole persecution complex going.
    Last edited by Deuce; 01-24-11 at 10:21 AM.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

  10. #50
    American
    cpgrad08's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Lakewood,WA
    Last Seen
    10-18-17 @ 07:14 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    5,388
    Blog Entries
    10

    Re: "Don't ask, don't tell" cost tops $50,000 per expulsion, study finds

    There is reason why my Corps was fought against the repeal of DADT. Open gays along females reduce cohesion and combat effectiveness. They also cause tension for units in the work place and for us the live in the Barracks.

Page 5 of 19 FirstFirst ... 3456715 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •