Page 16 of 19 FirstFirst ... 61415161718 ... LastLast
Results 151 to 160 of 184

Thread: "Don't ask, don't tell" cost tops $50,000 per expulsion, study finds

  1. #151
    OWL Forever
    katiegrrl0's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    at the computer
    Last Seen
    07-07-17 @ 07:11 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Socialist
    Posts
    4,121

    Re: "Don't ask, don't tell" cost tops $50,000 per expulsion, study finds

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Yes, they've been doing a fine job of it for over 200 years now.
    Then why the snide comment about their being immature kids?
    The flame that is between us could set every soul on fire. I would love to take that heat and let's fill the whole world with desire.
    Sophie B. Hawkins

  2. #152
    Basketball Nerd
    StillBallin75's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Vilseck, Germany
    Last Seen
    12-10-17 @ 07:52 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    21,896

    Re: "Don't ask, don't tell" cost tops $50,000 per expulsion, study finds

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    You're making a great case why gays shouldn't be allowed to serve openly.
    Actually I'm proposing that gays living in secrecy already erodes unit cohesion. Gays being allowed to serve openly in the long term would allow for fuller understanding and less homophobia/bigotry among the ranks.

  3. #153
    Meh...
    MSgt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Colorado
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:02 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    18,015

    Re: "Don't ask, don't tell" cost tops $50,000 per expulsion, study finds

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Not a lot of disagreement here. I don't know a lot about this subject, but I'm curious to know about the social dynamics and unit cohesion in coed units of the IDF (of which there are A LOT). EDIT: Correction, the only unisex infantry unit in the IDF seems to be the Caracal Battalion. My question about unit cohesion still stands though.


    The difference is culture. Out of necessity, man, woman, and child defended the re-birth of Israel. Culturally, this society began coed. However, Israelis also understand that women simply cannot exist in certain senarios. We do not live in a "Starship Trooper" world where we can all shower together and no one notices the differences. Nor can women conduct themselves generally inthe physical manner which is demanded in our fighting units. Someone may produce the exception, but she would be the exception.


    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Is this the fault of the gay Marine? Or his unprofessional teammates? It seems NCOs and officers should be enforcing discipline among the ranks in order to prevent such a scenario?
    Of course it's not the gay fellas fault. And professionalism is always a Marine's duty. However, this doesn't change the reality. I had to of heard at least 10 gay jokes today amongst a group of Marines that were raised in a culture that ridicules gays. Even today, Hollywood uses them as the butt of a joke and Californians refuse them gay rights to marry. But the military (Marines) are supposed to behave as if they emerged from a different culture? This will take time and most gays (if not all) in the Marine Corps will remain private. The problems will be more severe in the other branches due to the lesser degree of discipline, but the Marine Corps will have it's issues as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Could it not be argued that because a Gay Marine can't be honest with his brothers-in-arms (the issue of him hiding his own identity is always in the back of his mind), a psycho-social wall is built up between him and his teammates because of this, and that this secrecy results in an erosion of unit cohesion? In which case perhaps allowing gays to open themselves up would enable other Marines to eventually be more accepting?
    This will all come into play. Part of the Pentagon study was on how to impliment this change with as little effect to mission as possible. The Marine Corps has spent decades reflecting on female Marines as our sisters (which would invoke protection issues in combat if they were in the infantry). The same will eventually have to be applied towards gays. But in the mean time, most of them will remain "in the closet," especially in tighter units. I am a Chief in a team of 17 that gets embedded in the Afghani forces. This makes us pretty tight. I would think that even after some have been fond of gay jokes, that after all this time together if one were to present his truth to us, then we would accept it. But we are all senior in ranks and ridicule and harshness is usually in the youth (lower ranks and Lts). I'm not sure what it would do to that Fire team of 4 or squad of 13 who all age between 18 and 25.

    MSgt
    Semper Fidelis
    USMC

  4. #154
    Meh...
    MSgt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Colorado
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:02 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    18,015

    Re: "Don't ask, don't tell" cost tops $50,000 per expulsion, study finds

    Quote Originally Posted by katiegrrl0 View Post
    You are making a judgment that they outed themselves just to be discharged. That is an asinine statement. You have no proof that this is what any gay or lesbian did.
    No..there is proof. A great number of even non-gays used DADT to get out of obligation. This is why after 9/11 the Army and Marine Corps started telling them that they could be gay after the deployment. They generally stopped being gay when units got back.

    MSgt
    Semper Fidelis
    USMC

  5. #155
    Meh...
    MSgt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Colorado
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:02 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    18,015

    Re: "Don't ask, don't tell" cost tops $50,000 per expulsion, study finds

    Quote Originally Posted by katiegrrl0 View Post
    Yes they are or a bigot. One of the two. Why else would there be a problem with gays and lesbians in service? This is all about bigotry.
    It's about culture. You seem to be wanting the military to be the bad guy here. Are we not a reflection of you civilians? Are we not all cut from the society that is America? When civilians allow them to marry and stop applauding at the gay ridicule they see on television or on silver screen...come back and talk about the biggoted military. At least in the military, gays will be protected under the UCMJ. Good Marines and soldiers will beprosecuted and lose careers just to satisfy the gay sensitivity issue. What do you self righteous civilians get for your bigotries?

    MSgt
    Semper Fidelis
    USMC

  6. #156
    Meh...
    MSgt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Colorado
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:02 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    18,015

    Re: "Don't ask, don't tell" cost tops $50,000 per expulsion, study finds

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Yes, they've been doing a fine job of it for over 200 years now.
    It's because we are secretly all gay for each other. Shhhh.

    MSgt
    Semper Fidelis
    USMC

  7. #157
    Meh...
    MSgt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Colorado
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:02 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    18,015

    Re: "Don't ask, don't tell" cost tops $50,000 per expulsion, study finds

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Actually I'm proposing that gays living in secrecy already erodes unit cohesion. Gays being allowed to serve openly in the long term would allow for fuller understanding and less homophobia/bigotry among the ranks.
    I don't think so. There are so few of them in uniform that their hurt feelings don't matter to unit cohesion. It will all work out in the end somehow. Today, Marines are fond of making racial jokes towards each other and then going out for beers. Gays seem to already be OK with taking a joke. This transition won't be as bad as some imply and more trouble than some admit. This is because people that oppose it are traditional in their thinking and those that voice for it are more concerned with "gay rights" than they are about practical application. It will come down to what it always comesdown to - the military setting the example for the rest of the country. Maybe after gays have been patrolling openly next to non-gays in foriegn lands civilians will decide to give them "rights" in the country.
    Last edited by MSgt; 01-27-11 at 05:59 PM.

    MSgt
    Semper Fidelis
    USMC

  8. #158
    Basketball Nerd
    StillBallin75's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Vilseck, Germany
    Last Seen
    12-10-17 @ 07:52 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    21,896

    Re: "Don't ask, don't tell" cost tops $50,000 per expulsion, study finds

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    The difference is culture. Out of necessity, man, woman, and child defended the re-birth of Israel. Culturally, this society began coed. However, Israelis also understand that women simply cannot exist in certain senarios. We do not live in a "Starship Trooper" world where we can all shower together and no one notices the differences. Nor can women conduct themselves generally inthe physical manner which is demanded in our fighting units. Someone may produce the exception, but she would be the exception.




    Of course it's not the gay fellas fault. And professionalism is always a Marine's duty. However, this doesn't change the reality. I had to of heard at least 10 gay jokes today amongst a group of Marines that were raised in a culture that ridicules gays. Even today, Hollywood uses them as the butt of a joke and Californians refuse them gay rights to marry. But the military (Marines) are supposed to behave as if they emerged from a different culture? This will take time and most gays (if not all) in the Marine Corps will remain private. The problems will be more severe in the other branches due to the lesser degree of discipline, but the Marine Corps will have it's issues as well.



    This will all come into play. Part of the Pentagon study was on how to impliment this change with as little effect to mission as possible. The Marine Corps has spent decades reflecting on female Marines as our sisters (which would invoke protection issues in combat if they were in the infantry). The same will eventually have to be applied towards gays. But in the mean time, most of them will remain "in the closet," especially in tighter units. I am a Chief in a team of 17 that gets embedded in the Afghani forces. This makes us pretty tight. I would think that even after some have been fond of gay jokes, that after all this time together if one were to present his truth to us, then we would accept it. But we are all senior in ranks and ridicule and harshness is usually in the youth (lower ranks and Lts). I'm not sure what it would do to that Fire team of 4 or squad of 13 who all age between 18 and 25.
    I disagree with much of this. I'm a liberal but I wish to join the 03 Infantry after college and I guess I have an unreasonably idealistic sense of just how professional Marines are supposed to be. But thanks for the honest and reasoned response, Master Sergeant. As an aside, do you think Recon/Force Recon and MARSOC operators are in general more mature and professional than their infantry counterparts?
    Last edited by StillBallin75; 01-27-11 at 06:28 PM.

  9. #159
    Meh...
    MSgt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Colorado
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:02 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    18,015

    Re: "Don't ask, don't tell" cost tops $50,000 per expulsion, study finds

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    I disagree with much of this. I'm a liberal but I wish to join the 03 Infantry after college and I guess I have an unreasonably idealistic sense of just how professional Marines are supposed to be. But thanks for the honest and reasoned response, Master Sergeant. As an aside, do you think Recon/Force Recon and MARSOC operators are in general more mature and professional than their infantry counterparts?
    Well, "liberal" has nothing to do with it. We are a Conservative military, but that's largely because the Vietnam protestors have made it so. The descendents of that hippie era raised children who now lead our country and assume to know what's best for the military despite the attitude that they would never disgrace themselves with such a lower man's profession. You'll agree with more of what I write once you emerge in the military culture and see it up close.

    MARSOC operators and such all come from the same culture that the rest do. We all tend to reflect our upbringing, but they are typically tighter than most. But gays will have it easier in the Marine Corps because of the enforced sense of individual discipline. But sometimes boys will be boys. Remember, we aren't the ones that bring the American people their Mai Lais, Abu-Ghraibs, Jessica Lynchs, Black Hawk Downs, Tali Hooks, etc. We are the dummies that get caught hazing each other on 60 minutes (pinning ceremony for a Recon unit). In the end, that gay will be protected because he is our gay.
    Last edited by MSgt; 01-27-11 at 06:43 PM.

    MSgt
    Semper Fidelis
    USMC

  10. #160
    Sage
    apdst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bagdad, La.
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:07 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    76,453

    Re: "Don't ask, don't tell" cost tops $50,000 per expulsion, study finds

    Quote Originally Posted by katiegrrl0 View Post
    Then why the snide comment about their being immature kids?
    Because they are! That's why for every 4-6 privates, there's an NCO to keep watch on them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

Page 16 of 19 FirstFirst ... 61415161718 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •