Page 10 of 11 FirstFirst ... 891011 LastLast
Results 91 to 100 of 103

Thread: Arlington Man Loses Gun License Due To Blog About Tucson Shooting

  1. #91
    Advisor Plato's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Here be Dragons
    Last Seen
    09-01-17 @ 02:28 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    317

    Re: Arlington Man Loses Gun License Due To Blog About Tucson Shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    those who impose gun control are often the people most in need of being shot by honest citizens
    You mean like the parliamentarians of European democracies who do so with the full support of their electorates?

    Everyone imposes gun control, except some crackpots in the USA, lawless third world countries and of course the country of Switzerland.

    Why is the gun control debate so ludicrous? It is as clear as anything that the Founding Fathers made gun ownership a right because they wanted to arm a civilian population against a State that would use a standing army to extort taxes from them so that it could go and fight more wars and enslave more people to pay taxes to pay for more armies to conquer more countries....

    This was a smart move at the time which has now passed its sell by date (unless you are a pacifist who opposes all American military intervention). But of course to the US Right the Constitution is not there to serve mankind but to act as a God given set of edicts that cannot be challenged or discussed. The idea that a papal infallibility or Biblical dogmatism would be applied to their actions and words more than two hundred and fifty years after they lived, would be utterly ludicrous to the Enlightenment loving, dissent fomenting Founding Fathers.

    Just how are an armed citizenry supposed to withstand the might of the world's mightiest superpower ( a concept that the Founding Fathers would have struggled to imagine)? If you really are serious you should be recommending that citizens be issued with IEDs and SAMs being the only viable way of even troubling the greatest military on Earth. This seems to be james suggestion - preparing for the US insurgency as in Iraq. Seems to go with some defeatist talk to me. Strange conservativism that pans its military so!

    Or you could move on and recognize that history develops from a time where only the USA has an elected leader unbeholden to an autocracy and that in democratic societies people have rights and responsibilities and that your rights have to be balanced against my right not to be harmed by your freedom.

    Funnily enough I think the Founding Fathers understood this principle (that of conflicting rights and freedoms) rather well.
    Last edited by Plato; 01-26-11 at 02:25 AM.
    There is a way to gain the whole world. It is to gain the people, and having gained them, one gains the whole world. There is a way to gain the people. Gain their hearts and minds and then you gain them. Mencius

  2. #92
    Advisor Plato's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Here be Dragons
    Last Seen
    09-01-17 @ 02:28 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    317

    Re: Arlington Man Loses Gun License Due To Blog About Tucson Shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    What would stop the government from becoming tyrannical if the people are not adequately armed? Their word? The founder's documents?
    Elections. As they do.

    That's when people vote. And kick out a government they don't like.

    Of course you could give me all the examples of liberal democracies where the government has become tyrannical against an unarmed population and abolished elections. Start with the advanced liberal democracies in Western Europe since 1945.

    I would imagine, given your certainty as to how governments just cannot help themselves when faced with an unarmed population, that you can point to the governments of the United Kingdom, France, Italy, the Federal Republic of Germany, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland, the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxemburg, abolished elections and started to abuse their people.

    Obviously I never learned about this at school because I was educated in Britain. Clearly the government here, faced with all us un-armed numpties, abolished elections and pretended to hold them regularly just to fool us. The fact of our de facto tyranny was hidden from us by an education system which was forced to do its government's bidding and pretend that we still had the right to kick out any government we didn't like.

    There were people at my university who claimed this sort of thing and told us that we were just naieve dupes of a tyrannical government only giving us the illusion of freedom. We called these paranoid delinquents communists and all thought they were crazy. Still I am sure that you james can now point out where we were going wrong all the time.

    If only we'd had guns, then we would really know freedom. If only we were American and not the sub-human sub caste that we furners really are. If only... hand on heart looking mystically into the sky...
    Last edited by Plato; 01-26-11 at 02:26 AM.
    There is a way to gain the whole world. It is to gain the people, and having gained them, one gains the whole world. There is a way to gain the people. Gain their hearts and minds and then you gain them. Mencius

  3. #93
    Student Zyroh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Last Seen
    02-13-11 @ 02:04 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    237

    Re: Arlington Man Loses Gun License Due To Blog About Tucson Shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Plato View Post
    Just how are an armed citizenry supposed to withstand the might of the world's mightiest superpower ( a concept that the Founding Fathers would have struggled to imagine)?
    was this not the EXACT situation they fought against to win their independence. jefferson always said we'd have to do it again someday, never said it would be easy though.
    Democracy is two wolves and sheep voting on what's for dinner. Liberty is a well armed sheep willing to contest the vote.

  4. #94
    Advisor Plato's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Here be Dragons
    Last Seen
    09-01-17 @ 02:28 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    317

    Re: Arlington Man Loses Gun License Due To Blog About Tucson Shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyroh View Post
    was this not the EXACT situation they fought against to win their independence. jefferson always said we'd have to do it again someday, never said it would be easy though.
    The super power was far away.

    Still if the NRA and its friends really believe that guns are for fighting the US Army, Air Force and Navy, why don't they say so?

    I'm also a little confused. It seems now that the Iraqi insurgents are just armed citizens fighting a tyrannical government and that Americans should prepare to do just the same. Not terrorists anymore, apparently. Role models in fact.

    I wish people would clearly say this too.

    Then everyone would know where they are.
    There is a way to gain the whole world. It is to gain the people, and having gained them, one gains the whole world. There is a way to gain the people. Gain their hearts and minds and then you gain them. Mencius

  5. #95
    Student Zyroh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Last Seen
    02-13-11 @ 02:04 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    237

    Re: Arlington Man Loses Gun License Due To Blog About Tucson Shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Plato View Post
    The super power was far away.

    Still if the NRA and its friends really believe that guns are for fighting the US Army, Air Force and Navy, why don't they say so?

    I'm also a little confused. It seems now that the Iraqi insurgents are just armed citizens fighting a tyrannical government and that Americans should prepare to do just the same. Not terrorists anymore, apparently. Role models in fact.

    I wish people would clearly say this too.

    Then everyone would know where they are.
    well the hope is that people enlisted in our military wouldn't be coerced into firing on americans. the problem is the private mercinary army is now larger than the enlisted army, so hopefully when it comes time, the army, navy, airforce are on our side.

    and i agree with you about the iraqis, i don't think we'd do much different if another country tried to occupy us or build military bases on our land. or would we?
    Last edited by Zyroh; 01-26-11 at 02:37 AM. Reason: fat fingers
    Democracy is two wolves and sheep voting on what's for dinner. Liberty is a well armed sheep willing to contest the vote.

  6. #96
    Advisor Plato's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Here be Dragons
    Last Seen
    09-01-17 @ 02:28 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    317

    Re: Arlington Man Loses Gun License Due To Blog About Tucson Shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyroh View Post
    well the hope is that people enlisted in our military wouldn't be coerced into firing on americans. the problem is the private mercinary army is now larger than the enlisted army, so hopefully when it comes time, the army, navy, airforce are on our side.

    and i agree with you about the iraqis, i don't think we'd do much different if another country tried to occupy us or build military bases on our land. or would we?
    Thanks for being so clear. It is interesting that constitutional arguments for gun control depend on such extremist and marginal positions.

    It does so much remind me of waiting for the revolution when I was young. Now its waiting for the military industrial complex to come and get us....
    There is a way to gain the whole world. It is to gain the people, and having gained them, one gains the whole world. There is a way to gain the people. Gain their hearts and minds and then you gain them. Mencius

  7. #97
    Sage
    jamesrage's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    A place where common sense exists
    Last Seen
    Today @ 06:00 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    31,078

    Re: Arlington Man Loses Gun License Due To Blog About Tucson Shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Plato View Post
    Elections. As they do.

    That's when people vote. And kick out a government they don't like.
    What good would voting do if the government becomes tyrannical? If they are tyrannical then obviously your ballet becomes something they wipe their ass off with.


    Of course you could give me all the examples of liberal democracies where the government has become tyrannical against an unarmed population and abolished elections. Start with the advanced liberal democracies in Western Europe since 1945.
    Any country that abolished the right of the people to keep and bear arms and became tyrannical will suffice.

    I would imagine, given your certainty as to how governments just cannot help themselves when faced with an unarmed population, that you can point to the governments of the United Kingdom, France, Italy, the Federal Republic of Germany, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland, the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxemburg, abolished elections and started to abuse their people.


    Obviously I never learned about this at school because I was educated in Britain. Clearly the government here, faced with all us un-armed numpties, abolished elections and pretended to hold them regularly just to fool us. The fact of our de facto tyranny was hidden from us by an education system which was forced to do its government's bidding and pretend that we still had the right to kick out any government we didn't like.

    There were people at my university who claimed this sort of thing and told us that we were just naieve dupes of a tyrannical government only giving us the illusion of freedom. We called these paranoid delinquents communists and all thought they were crazy. Still I am sure that you james can now point out where we were going wrong all the time.

    If only we'd had guns, then we would really know freedom. If only we were American and not the sub-human sub caste that we furners really are. If only... hand on heart looking mystically into the sky...

    You think if tyranny doesn't happen over night then it is not going to happen at all? You and your fellow countrymen are practically unarmed, the government has no reason to fear any of you.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  8. #98
    Student Zyroh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Last Seen
    02-13-11 @ 02:04 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    237

    Re: Arlington Man Loses Gun License Due To Blog About Tucson Shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Plato View Post
    Thanks for being so clear. It is interesting that constitutional arguments for gun control depend on such extremist and marginal positions.
    i don't think it's a marginal position at all. when the supreme court knocked down the dc gun ban i was against it. the reason being that i'm for communities deciding the best way to protect themselves. gun control is a question of how people decide to protect themselves. some, mostly in urban populations, feel safer relying on the local police force for protection. others, in prodominantly rural areas, feel safer protecting themselves. i wouldn't assume that i should tell any other city or state how to accomplish that goal.
    Democracy is two wolves and sheep voting on what's for dinner. Liberty is a well armed sheep willing to contest the vote.

  9. #99
    Advisor Plato's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Here be Dragons
    Last Seen
    09-01-17 @ 02:28 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    317

    Re: Arlington Man Loses Gun License Due To Blog About Tucson Shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyroh View Post
    i don't think it's a marginal position at all. when the supreme court knocked down the dc gun ban i was against it. the reason being that i'm for communities deciding the best way to protect themselves. gun control is a question of how people decide to protect themselves. some, mostly in urban populations, feel safer relying on the local police force for protection. others, in prodominantly rural areas, feel safer protecting themselves. i wouldn't assume that i should tell any other city or state how to accomplish that goal.
    I am not saying opposing gun control is a marginal position. I am saying that opposing all gun control, based on paranoid visions of dystopias where governments turn on their people, so that they have to be protected from them by armed insurgencies, is a marginal position.

    Personally I think its up to local communities too and should not be classified as a universal inalienable right handed down by God to the Founding Fathers on tablets of stone. It's a matter of balancing rights against responsibilities. Guns are for hunting and self protection and therefore have a use. But gun owners have a responsibility to keep and use their weapons responsibly according to judgements made today and not two hundred years ago.

    The protection against tyrannical government has nothing to do with gun control any more. That is extremist nonsense that the majority of Americans laugh at. In well established democracies we are protected against tyranny by our ability to vote, by the separation of powers and by the rule of law. Guns are not necessary.

    I am not sure how, but you seem to agree with the first part of my view. As well as thinking that you need to protect yourself against the coming government attack....I am confused!
    Last edited by Plato; 01-26-11 at 04:23 AM.
    There is a way to gain the whole world. It is to gain the people, and having gained them, one gains the whole world. There is a way to gain the people. Gain their hearts and minds and then you gain them. Mencius

  10. #100
    Advisor Plato's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Here be Dragons
    Last Seen
    09-01-17 @ 02:28 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    317

    Re: Arlington Man Loses Gun License Due To Blog About Tucson Shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    What good would voting do if the government becomes tyrannical? If they are tyrannical then obviously your ballet becomes something they wipe their ass off with.



    Any country that abolished the right of the people to keep and bear arms and became tyrannical will suffice.




    You think if tyranny doesn't happen over night then it is not going to happen at all? You and your fellow countrymen are practically unarmed, the government has no reason to fear any of you.
    Sorry james. I was asking if you could relate any of this baloney to reality.

    Well established democracies since 1945 are not tyrannies. The evidence for this is clear. We hold regular elections and regularly switch governments. Typically it is only Marxists who dismiss these elections as an illusion of freedom.

    You see you can live in a paranoid fantasy world where you imagine all sorts of terrible things happening. Or you can look at reality and see the EVIDENCE that free democratic peoples do not need guns to guarantee their authority over their governments. Our governments fear us because we can throw them out at elections. Which we do when they screw up.

    Now maybe instead of lurid fantasies you could present some evidence?

    Name a well established democracy that has become a tyranny. At most you can point to fledgling ones (like Weimar Germany) and these are complicated by the fact that it was defeated by millions of armed Germans who had been hoodwinked by politiicans into detesting democracy. Undoubtedly the German people had no wish to resist Hitler. They largely supported him.

    A well established democracy that has become a tyranny because its people were not armed (which is nearly all well established democracies) has NEVER happened. In the early days of a democracy, a government morphing to tyranny is a distinct possibility, and this was a legitimate fear in 1776 (many wanted Washington to be King and it was a great achievement for him to hand over power).

    The FF, like you, could not conceive of a government that would easily bow to the will of the people. There is however a difference between the FF and you. They lived in a time when governments had no democratic traditions and behaved like that. You do not.
    Last edited by Plato; 01-26-11 at 04:39 AM.
    There is a way to gain the whole world. It is to gain the people, and having gained them, one gains the whole world. There is a way to gain the people. Gain their hearts and minds and then you gain them. Mencius

Page 10 of 11 FirstFirst ... 891011 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •