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Thread: Abortion Doctor Charged with Murder

  1. #271
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    Re: Abortion Doctor Charged with Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    X-factor:

    I see you're on the thread. I'm interested in your response to my rather lengthy post in response to your question. You can find it here:

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1059229445
    Yes, I read it. When I asked the question, I don't think I expected an answer, much less a good one, and I think your post is a good one, definitely worth thinking about. However, I'm just never going to be able to accept the premise that aborting babies for society's good is the right thing. If it is, why should there be any outcry over what the doc in the OP has done? By all accounts, he was providing abortions for just the type of women you described. I think society, with all it's laws trying to protect children, has decided that children need protection, even from the parents if necessary. To me, the rationale behind those laws should be just the same, whether the child is born or not. Children in bad homes is a heartbreaking thing, but worse, I think, is to never give that child a chance in the first place. If we're looking at whether it's a mistake to let a child be born, I think we should err on the side of life.
    Last edited by X Factor; 01-20-11 at 05:18 PM.
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  2. #272
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    Re: Abortion Doctor Charged with Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Centrist View Post
    I have done lots of volunteer work with these same types of kids in downtown Atlanta, Miami and San Francisco. As much as it hurts me to see kids in these positions, most of them are great and have an eagerness to learn and live life when they are guided by the right role models. I think the concern should be improving the adoption or foster care system, instead of killing them off. Personally, if you want to know the truth, I believe in temporary sterilization of certain individuals who have a long history of mental illness, drug abuse and/or criminal activity, that could be reversed if they ever prove they are able to function in society. I also believe in forced birth control for kids under 18. These are incredibly extreme positions and they would never fly in America and most people think those ideas are too Nazish, but I've seen the same things you have, and I know a large percentage of the people who have kids, don't need to be having kids. However, something in my soul can't agree with terminating fetuses that are more than 30 days old.
    I have zero problems with forced sterilization for people with a track record of abuse/neglect.

    I don't like the idea of abortion. It's a nasty, nasty procedure. But, having spent a considerable amount of time contemplating the lives that some of these unwanted kids lead, I have to say (again)...

    If a woman really cares so little that she will have her baby sucked out of her uterus and down a drain, she should not have a baby, even if that baby will be given up for adoption immediately. The odds that this person will successfully carry the baby to term, without causing major health problems (like fetal alcohol syndrome) are small. There is a part of all of us which sees this as a major tragedy, and it is.

    I just don't believe that we can force women to carry babies they don't want, and have that end up all hunky dory. It doesn't.

    So...ideologically, I get it. Abortions are terrible. I could never have one, myself. But, there are worse scenarios than abortion. I've seen them, up close and personal.
    Last edited by Catz Part Deux; 01-20-11 at 05:22 PM.

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    Re: Abortion Doctor Charged with Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    why should there be any outcry over what the doc in the OP has done?
    Because there is a huge difference between a fully viable 7 month old infant and a non-viable 10-week old fetus.

    I used to feel very differently, but I had a miscarriage at 12 weeks. I did a lot of research and found that the body naturally terminates 1/3 of all pregnancies. They're biologically non-viable. Most women have had spontaneous abortions and never knew it, they just thought they were having a heavier than usual menstrual flow.

    I think we have to be rational about all of this. I'm pro-life. I believe in ending abortions after a certain point (after the first trimester would be my choice). But, we have to allow some kind of outlet here for those women who should not be having babies.

    I've worked with kids that were abused their entire lives and are now in the prison system for killing someone else. As harsh as this sounds, it would have been better for those kids to have been terminated at 8 weeks. It would have saved them---and multiple other people---a lot of agony.

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    Re: Abortion Doctor Charged with Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    It would largely depend on the circumstances of the case. I would prefer to see him charged with manslaughter
    "Manslaughter is the legal term for the killing of a human being." Manslaughter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    My problem with the current abortion laws is the blatant hypocrisy. Every pro-lifer I've asked on this thread agrees that, at least to some extent that the current Unborn Victim of Violence Act is an appropriate law. However they also state that a fetus before it is viable is not a human life. You seem to understand logic very well, so you must already recognize that both of these can not be true. Someone cannot murder what is not living. Someone cannot commit manslaughter on something that is not human.

    BTW, as for the insults, I don't feel I started them, I don't think you and some others on this forum recognize how insulting and condescending your statements can be sometimes. If I post a flawed argument, explain to me logically why that argument is flawed instead using words like silly and ridiculous. That is what a debate forum is for. As for the Dr. Pat guy, he was rude and condescending from the start, and has an affinity for the eye rolling smiling face.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Patrick View Post
    Again, is it really that hard for you to come up with an example that actually is in line with the topic at hand?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Patrick View Post
    Seriously, do yourself a favor and do some research on what a fetus develops in between that time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Patrick View Post
    It's sad that you can't see the difference between the two.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Patrick View Post
    I'm sorry if that answer isn't sufficient for you, but I'm not going to feed into your whacked out scenario to help prove your weak point. If you don't like that, feel free to discuss the issue with someone else.
    That's respect?

  5. #275
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    Re: Abortion Doctor Charged with Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Because there is a huge difference between a fully viable 7 month old infant and a non-viable 10-week old fetus.

    I used to feel very differently, but I had a miscarriage at 12 weeks. I did a lot of research and found that the body naturally terminates 1/3 of all pregnancies. They're biologically non-viable. Most women have had spontaneous abortions and never knew it, they just thought they were having a heavier than usual menstrual flow.

    I think we have to be rational about all of this. I'm pro-life. I believe in ending abortions after a certain point (after the first trimester would be my choice). But, we have to allow some kind of outlet here for those women who should not be having babies.

    I've worked with kids that were abused their entire lives and are now in the prison system for killing someone else. As harsh as this sounds, it would have been better for those kids to have been terminated at 8 weeks. It would have saved them---and multiple other people---a lot of agony.
    But if abortion at 8 weeks would have saved people a lot of agony, why wouldn't the same be true if that same guy was aborted at 6, 7 8 months? What happens in the second trimester that makes abortion no longer a viable (no pun intended) solution to an unwanted pregnancy?
    The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
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    Re: Abortion Doctor Charged with Murder

    Besides, I don't believe every initially unwanted child grows up to be a murderer or a drain on society just as I don't think a "wanted" child from a good home can't wind up being those things.
    The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
    Mahatma Gandhi


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    Re: Abortion Doctor Charged with Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Centrist View Post
    Every pro-lifer I've asked on this thread agrees that, at least to some extent that the current Unborn Victim of Violence Act is an appropriate law. However they also state that a fetus before it is viable is not a human life. You seem to understand logic very well, so you must already recognize that both of these can not be true. Someone cannot murder what is not living. Someone cannot commit manslaughter on something that is not human.
    I believe that humanity occurs in stages. Ah, if only we could implement a wholesale gom jabbar program for adults.

    BTW, as for the insults, I don't feel I started them, I don't think you and some others on this forum recognize how insulting and condescending your statements can be sometimes. If I post a flawed argument, explain to me logically why that argument is flawed instead using words like silly and ridiculous. That is what a debate forum is for. As for the Dr. Pat guy, he was rude and condescending from the start, and has an affinity for the eye rolling smiling face.
    Do I really need to give you a short summary of your insulting comments?

  8. #278
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    Re: Abortion Doctor Charged with Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    But if abortion at 8 weeks would have saved people a lot of agony, why wouldn't the same be true if that same guy was aborted at 6, 7 8 months? What happens in the second trimester that makes abortion no longer a viable (no pun intended) solution to an unwanted pregnancy?
    The fetus becomes viable outside the womb, and at that point, its rights trump the mother's rights. A fetus at 7 weeks is a clump of cells that may be flushed from her uterus next week, spontaneously.

    This issue is not metaphysical for me, it's medical. I deal with my emotional feelings about abortion by realizing, pragmatically, that we have no realistic means for forcing women to incubate fetuses to full term, and such an act would cause ten million more problems than we currently have.

    Do you really want to see women in prison cells for trying to obtain an abortion? I mean, have you really thought through the inevitable results of outlawing abortion wholesale?
    Last edited by Catz Part Deux; 01-20-11 at 06:10 PM.

  9. #279
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    Re: Abortion Doctor Charged with Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    I never used the term as an insult. I am not going to change the words I use just because you people like to pretend to be offended just so you can keep up the lie that you can be pro-choice and pro-abortion or try to dictate the terms that can be used in an abortion debate. Using the term pro-abortion instead of pro-choice has nothing to do with the definition that abortionist is usually used as an insult or is another term for pro-abortion.
    Well, obviously you mean it in the offensive context considering that you don't consider it to be pro-choice and call it pro-abortion instead. I'm done discussing it with you since you are obviously more interested in using emotional rhetoric than discussing the topic in a civil and rational way.

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    Re: Abortion Doctor Charged with Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    I believe that humanity occurs in stages. Ah, if only we could implement a wholesale gom jabbar program for adults.
    You stated that someone who murders a fetus in the first trimester should be convicted of manslaughter. Manslaughter is a crime that only can be done against human beings. Would you agree that women who abort their fetuses in first trimester are committing a legalized form of manslaughter?

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