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Thread: Abortion Doctor Charged with Murder

  1. #231
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    Re: Abortion Doctor Charged with Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Patrick View Post
    Once again, you are using an example that has absolutely nothing to do with this issue.
    Apparently you're not very educated in the legal system and don't understand the concept of common law or legal precedent.

    "A "common law system" is a legal system that gives great precedential weight to common law,[1] on the principle that it is unfair to treat similar facts differently on different occasions.[2] The body of precedent is called "common law" and it binds future decisions. In cases where the parties disagree on what the law is, an idealized common law court looks to past precedential decisions of relevant courts. If a similar dispute has been resolved in the past, the court is bound to follow the reasoning used in the prior decision (this principle is known as stare decisis)." Common law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    You see, people like me who are proponents of gay marriage point to the case of Loving vs Virginia where it was ruled that laws forbidding interracial marriages are unconstitutional. Based on common law this can be used in courts to prove that it is also therefore illegal to prevent same-sex marriage. Of course, when I debate with the conservatives about this they say "That's a totally different issue." Not only is that rebuttal a complete cop-out to dodge what is a blatant contradiction in their ideologies, it is also not in line with the American legal system which uses common law to judge cases. Therefore, looking at hypothetical or actual cases that are similar to abortion, i.e., any cases involving the termination of fetuses or crimes involving conjoined siamese twins, are completely in line with the American legal system and can help determine whether it is actually legally for a woman to terminate her fetus even if it is inside of her body and cannot live without the support of her body.

    But I don't expect you to understand any of that and its obvious you have no real interest in debating this topic. You've made it quite apparent that there is no real argument from the pro-choice side of things and that the liberals have become extremely closed minded on this issue and are unable to analytically look at any of the complex moral and legal issues involving these laws. Instead its simply "its the woman's choice, end of debate". You guys eerily remind me of the conservatives I debate with about gay marriage who simply say "Its wrong because the Bible says so, end of debate." This is precisely why I'm a centrist.

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    Re: Abortion Doctor Charged with Murder

    Moderator's Warning:
    Abortion Doctor Charged with MurderCease the personal attacks.
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  3. #233
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    Re: Abortion Doctor Charged with Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Centrist View Post
    Apparently you're not very educated in the legal system and don't understand the concept of common law or legal precedent.

    "A "common law system" is a legal system that gives great precedential weight to common law,[1] on the principle that it is unfair to treat similar facts differently on different occasions.[2] The body of precedent is called "common law" and it binds future decisions. In cases where the parties disagree on what the law is, an idealized common law court looks to past precedential decisions of relevant courts. If a similar dispute has been resolved in the past, the court is bound to follow the reasoning used in the prior decision (this principle is known as stare decisis)." Common law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    You see, people like me who are proponents of gay marriage point to the case of Loving vs Virginia where it was ruled that laws forbidding interracial marriages are unconstitutional. Based on common law this can be used in courts to prove that it is also therefore illegal to prevent same-sex marriage. Of course, when I debate with the conservatives about this they say "That's a totally different issue." Not only is that rebuttal a complete cop-out to dodge what is a blatant contradiction in their ideologies, it is also not in line with the American legal system which uses common law to judge cases. Therefore, looking at hypothetical or actual cases that are similar to abortion, i.e., any cases involving the termination of fetuses or crimes involving conjoined siamese twins, are completely in line with the American legal system and can help determine whether it is actually legally for a woman to terminate her fetus even if it is inside of her body and cannot live without the support of her body.

    But I don't expect you to understand any of that and its obvious you have no real interest in debating this topic. You've made it quite apparent that there is no real argument from the pro-choice side of things and that the liberals have become extremely closed minded on this issue and are unable to analytically look at any of the complex moral and legal issues involving these laws. Instead its simply "its the woman's choice, end of debate". You guys eerily remind me of the conservatives I debate with about gay marriage who simply say "Its wrong because the Bible says so, end of debate." This is precisely why I'm a centrist.
    You were comparing a human being in development to fully developed human beings (siamese twins). Feel free to fillibuster some more, but it does nothing for your argument.

  4. #234
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    Re: Abortion Doctor Charged with Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Centrist View Post
    Did you ever take an ethics class in college? Well if you did, you'd remember that ancient philosophers like Aristotle differentiated between Natural Laws and Man-Made Laws. Natural Laws are those things that human beings tend to naturally feel are right or wrong without having to be told. Murder, rape, stealing, etc., most human beings naturally feel those things are wrong and thus they are considered Universal Laws. Man-Made Laws are laws that tend to include a lot of natural Laws but also include laws that aren't universal such as speed limits, zoning and building codes when doing construction, etc. The perfect ideal, according to ancient Greek philosophers and even many modern day legal scholars, is for Man-Made Laws to reflect Natural Laws. Of course as we know, this is not always the case. One example is the legal slavery that existed in America. This where the Natural Laws that slavery is wrong, and State Laws conflicted.

    Now, abortion is a crime that violates the Natural Law. I have never met a woman who didn't feel negative and guilty feelings about getting an abortion. Both you and Doc Patty Cake have both asserted on this thread that you feel abortion is morally wrong but that it should still be legal. Thus, this is a clear case of when Natural Laws conflict with our State Laws. This should not be the case. Natural Laws, that is, things that are naturally considered by most humans to be morally wrong, should also be forbidden within our state laws, or else, justice isn't being served.

    "Natural law or the law of nature (Latin: lex naturalis) has been described as a law whose content is set by nature and that therefore holds everywhere.[1] As classically used, natural law refers to the use of reason to analyze human nature and deduce binding rules of moral behavior. The phrase natural law is opposed to the positive law (meaning "man-made law", not "good law"; cf. posit) of a given political community, society, or nation-state, and thus can function as a standard by which to criticize that law.[2] In natural law jurisprudence, on the other hand, the content of positive law cannot be known without some reference to the natural law"

    Natural law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    I don't consider ancient philosophers to be my moral arbiters. And, this is a lame argument. It's basically a dressed up and extremely verbose appeal to authority fallacy.

    p.s. If you'd ever taken a logic class in college, you'd know this.
    Last edited by Catz Part Deux; 01-20-11 at 03:32 PM.

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    Re: Abortion Doctor Charged with Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    I don't consider ancient philosophers to be my moral arbiters. And, this is a lame argument. It's basically a dressed up and extremely verbose appeal to authority fallacy.

    p.s. If you'd ever taken a logic class in college, you'd know this.
    So you believe that natural law shouldn't always coincide with man-made laws?

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    Re: Abortion Doctor Charged with Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Patrick View Post
    You were comparing a human being in development to fully developed human beings (siamese twins). Feel free to fillibuster some more, but it does nothing for your argument.
    Same-sex marriage proponents also compare interracial marriage laws to same-sex marriage laws. I guess you think those two can't be compared?

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    Re: Abortion Doctor Charged with Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Centrist View Post
    So you believe that natural law shouldn't always coincide with man-made laws?
    I believe that natural law is flexible, based upon cultural issues, just like man-made laws. Also, this is a strawman.
    Last edited by Catz Part Deux; 01-20-11 at 04:41 PM.

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    Re: Abortion Doctor Charged with Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    I believe that natural law is flexible, based upon cultural issues, just like man-made laws. Also, this is a strawman. I don't believe in singular, never-changing "truth."
    You don't believe that the vast majority of human beings have an aversion to abortion even if they support the legality of it?

  9. #239
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    Re: Abortion Doctor Charged with Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Centrist View Post
    Same-sex marriage proponents also compare interracial marriage laws to same-sex marriage laws. I guess you think those two can't be compared?
    Not really. They only can be compared in that they are both social discriminatory issues and because a person can't control their sexual orientation anymore than they can control their race, but that's where the comparisons end.

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    Re: Abortion Doctor Charged with Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Centrist View Post
    Same-sex marriage proponents also compare interracial marriage laws to same-sex marriage laws. I guess you think those two can't be compared?
    I don't even know how to respond to something so blatantly silly.

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