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Vatican warned Irish bishops not to report abuse

rathi said:
The Irish clergy recognized the problem and drafted a series of procedures and policies to combat the abuse, which were then sent to the Vatican for approval. They included mandatory reporting to the authorities upon receiving a complaint of abuse from a victim. It even included reminders of the legal rights of accused, policies for handling false accusations, and to avoid giving into hate. Nowhere did it instruct to break confession. The Vatican's response shows they were clearly more motivated by covering up crimes to protect the churches reputation than anything else.

What makes this so terrible is that there were elements within the Catholic church who tried to do the right thing, but they were overruled by the corruption at the top.
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The voice of reason, this is.

There is a reason why there are mandatory reporting laws regarding interactions with victims. Those laws are in place to protect victims, and to ensure that they receive the support and assistance that they need, but also to ensure that perpetrators do not commit further crimes.

This letter directed priests and others to circumvent the law, refuse to report victimization, and in essence---TURNED THEM INTO ACCESSORIES TO THE CRIME.

This was not about betraying confidences gained in confession. It was about refusing to help victims.
 
Guy Incognito said:
You also seem to be misunderstanding. Any mandatory reporting requirement is subject to the confessor's duty of confidentiality. The communication is what is at issue here, not the underlying crime.
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This isn't the issue at all!! The issue is that it is Catholic POLICY to NOT go to the authorities and handle things in their own way of secrecy if a Catholic employee discovers rape or child molestation by another employee (whether by confession or not).
 
scourge99 said:
This isn't the issue at all!! The issue is that it is Catholic POLICY to NOT go to the authorities and handle things in their own way of secrecy if a Catholic employee discovers rape or child molestation by another employee (whether by confession or not).
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You still seem to be misunderstanding. Let me make it clear for you, whether "by confession or not" does indeed matter. By the law of the United States and Ireland the confidentiality of confession is protected. If you disagree with the law, you are entitled to your opinion.

However, you are factually incorrect.
 
Guy Incognito said:
whether "by confession or not" does indeed matter.
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I understand that. But its not as though a majority of these incidents were brought about by confessions. The victims and others who witnessed the criminal activities or had suspicions brought up questions and accusations within the church. The church, as a matter of POLICY, hid the criminal activity from authorities and shuffled priests around to different parishes to save face.

Guy Incognito said:
By the law of the United States and Ireland the confidentiality of confession is protected. If you disagree with the law, you are entitled to your opinion.
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I do disagree. Religious or not, confessions should not be protected, period. Its absurd that religion supersedes criminal law in all matters except for this special case. The only exception I would grant is to lawyers otherwise they cannot reasonably defend their client.
 
spud_meister said:
Vatican_letter_1133661a.JPG


Translation: Don't report paedophiles, it's embarrassing.
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Wrong. It is a violation of canon law. If a priest is to be removed from the priesthood, it has to be through canon law, not civil law...

You obviously didn't read the letter very clearly...
 
spud_meister said:
Well here's the report that the letter is responding to: http://www.catholicbishops.ie/images/docs/csaframework.pdf

The madatory reporting does conflict with the sacrament of confession.



The Irish church was taking that stance that brining a paedophile to justice is more important than confidentiality, which is a stance I agree with.
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I disagree with that stance. Confession and reconcilation are MANDATORY for Catholics. If one does not go to Confession, he/she violates a basic tenet of the Faith. It has long been regarded as Canon law that anything said in the Confessional is and always shall remain between Confessor and the Believer. Telling civil authorities of anything said in the Confessional is a violation of that and can lead to defrocking of the priest who makes such a report.
 
scourge99 said:
I understand that. But its not as though a majority of these incidents were brought about by confessions. The victims and others who witnessed the criminal activities or had suspicions brought up questions and accusations within the church. The church, as a matter of POLICY, hid the criminal activity from authorities and shuffled priests around to different parishes to save face.

I do disagree. Religious or not, confessions should not be protected, period. Its absurd that religion supersedes criminal law in all matters except for this special case. The only exception I would grant is to lawyers otherwise they cannot reasonably defend their client.
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You do understand that the Church teaches that one MUST go to Confession, MUST! It is a requirement of the Faith and it is through Confession and Reconciliation that one can re-seal his/her relationship with God. Forcing priests to report the contents of Confession to civil law authorities is a grave violation of the faith of the Confessional and a violation of the freedom of religion. If there is evidence of abuse, bring it, but NOT what is said in the Confessional...
 
ludahai said:
No, but you have to ascertain what is being done and use evidence that comes up OUTSIDE the confessional...
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I don't expect such devout Catholic like yourself to actually think of children unless they're crying about aborted non-sentient fetuses.
 
Hatuey said:
I don't expect such devout Catholic like yourself to actually think of children unless they're crying about aborted non-sentient fetuses.
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I don't expect anti-Catholics like you to actually respect the basic tenents of the Faith of more than ONE BILLION people around the world...

There is a word for people like you, but I would likely get an infraction point if I used it here...
 
ludahai said:
I don't expect anti-Catholics like you to actually respect the basic tenents of the Faith of more than ONE BILLION people around the world...
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I forgot it was a basic Catholic tenet to protect corrupt priests responsible for the rape of children. My bad! Oh I get it now.. it's okay to ignore the fact that priests are raping kids if it'll save the Catholic religion...

And Anti-Catholic? My wife is a Catholic. She's just not a blind defender of criminals and rapists. Unlike yourself.

There is a word for people like you, but I would likely get an infraction point if I used it here...
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Haha. You don't have the minerals son.
 
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ludahai said:
Wrong. It is a violation of canon law. If a priest is to be removed from the priesthood, it has to be through canon law, not civil law...

You obviously didn't read the letter very clearly...
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So the part about mandatory reporting (which doesn't include confession) of paedophiles being immoral, is what? Pixie dust? Or do you think priests should be above the law?
 
How revolting and sad. It's truly ashame that the Catholic church does this. Biblical doctrine says that those who do things like this should be dealt with and not swept under the rug. Methinks the Pope should read Corinthians (both of them).
 
digsbe said:
How revolting and sad. It's truly ashame that the Catholic church does this. Biblical doctrine says that those who do things like this should be dealt with and not swept under the rug. Methinks the Pope should read Corinthians (both of them).
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How dare you put the Christian faith of ONE BIJILION PEOPLE behind the welfare of the kids they're supposed to be taking care of?
 
Hatuey said:
How dare you put the Christian faith of ONE BIJILION PEOPLE behind the welfare of the kids they're supposed to be taking care of?
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I dare because I care :mrgreen:
 
spud_meister said:
So the part about mandatory reporting (which doesn't include confession) of paedophiles being immoral, is what? Pixie dust? Or do you think priests should be above the law?
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No, priests are NOT above the law. However, reporting should and must be done within the laws of the Catholic church. People criticize the church for not taking action against the priests. What many people don't understand is that Canon law MUST be followed by bishops and other Church officials and it can sometimes be slow. The Church takes its time so as to not make mistakes. Were mistakes made here? Yes. However, remember that the Church is also founded on the notion of forgiveness. 'Forgive us as we forgive those who trespass against us..." Those are not empty words to the Church.
 
ludahai said:
No, priests are NOT above the law. However, reporting should and must be done within the laws of the Catholic church. People criticize the church for not taking action against the priests. What many people don't understand is that Canon law MUST be followed by bishops and other Church officials and it can sometimes be slow. The Church takes its time so as to not make mistakes. Were mistakes made here? Yes. However, remember that the Church is also founded on the notion of forgiveness. 'Forgive us as we forgive those who trespass against us..." Those are not empty words to the Church.
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Well the church's laws aren't working, and forgiveness doesn't really help the victims, does it? Reporting should be done by the law, it isn't church law that was broken, it was criminal law, and it should be pursued through the proper authorities ie. the police. And the church doesn't really have a great track record when it comes to providing justice to it's own, does it?
 
spud_meister said:
Well the church's laws aren't working, and forgiveness doesn't really help the victims, does it? Reporting should be done by the law, it isn't church law that was broken, it was criminal law, and it should be pursued through the proper authorities ie. the police. And the church doesn't really have a great track record when it comes to providing justice to it's own, does it?
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Actually, both Canon AND Civil law were broken. However, bishops are required to work within Canon law before punishment can be meted out to a priest within the Church. Actually, on the whole, the Church has a pretty good track record over the centuries. However, some people may be disatisfied (as I am at times) with the glacial pace of that system...
 
Hatuey said:
I forgot it was a basic Catholic tenet to protect corrupt priests responsible for the rape of children. My bad! Oh I get it now.. it's okay to ignore the fact that priests are raping kids if it'll save the Catholic religion...

And Anti-Catholic? My wife is a Catholic. She's just not a blind defender of criminals and rapists. Unlike yourself.
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Nor am I. However, there are procedures to be followed and I prefer that they be followed.



Haha. You don't have the minerals son.
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Nah, I just have never received an infraction point on here and I believe it is important to maintain a certain civility in discourse, even with those who are dispicable and don't recognize the importance of such civility themselves...
 
ludahai said:
You do understand that the Church teaches that one MUST go to Confession, MUST! It is a requirement of the Faith and it is through Confession and Reconciliation that one can re-seal his/her relationship with God.
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ludahai said:
If there is evidence of abuse, bring it, but NOT what is said in the Confessional...
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I didn't know it was mandatory but that doesn't change the basis of my argument: that invoking religion isn't a valid excuse to supersede CRIMINAL law. We see this time and time again in rulings. One of the ONLY exceptions is Native American peyote use which is reasonable since it is a victimless crime. Peyote use for religion doesn't involve the systematic rape or conspiracy to rape children.

If a religion believed it was mandatory to make human sacrifices we wouldn't give it protection from criminal law because its their honest and sacred belief. Religion is NOT an excuse to supersede criminal laws. Period. E.G., we prosecute FLDS members for having sex with underage brides. The Catholics get a freepass because they have so much influence and power in American politics. The FLDS don't.

Testimonial evidence from priests involved in a crime IS evidence. If the FLDS' religious beliefs were such that they believed they must videotape sex with their underage brides, it would be ABSURD to argue that such evidence is protected from use in a court of law. That is EXACTLY the type of argument that Catholics must argue for to be consistent in their exemptions for criminal confessions. When put in sch a light it becomes patently obvious how inconsistent and wrong such an exemption is.

(note: laws cannot be made to target or discriminate a particular religion. That is unconstitutional.)

ludahai said:
Forcing priests to report the contents of Confession to civil law authorities is a grave violation of the faith of the Confessional and a violation of the freedom of religion.
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No one is required to report crimes. What they are required to do is testify in a court of law if subpoenaed.
 
scourge99 said:
I didn't know it was mandatory but that doesn't change the basis of my argument: that invoking religion isn't a valid excuse to supersede CRIMINAL law. We see this time and time again in rulings. One of the ONLY exceptions is Native American peyote use which is reasonable since it is a victimless crime. Peyote use for religion doesn't involve the systematic rape or conspiracy to rape children.
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And priests who molest children ARE subject to criminal law. The point is that if officials of the Church are going to report it, it must be consistant with the tenants of Canon law.

If a religion believed it was mandatory to make human sacrifices we wouldn't give it protection from criminal law because its their honest and sacred belief. Religion is NOT an excuse to supersede criminal laws. Period. E.G., we prosecute FLDS members for having sex with underage brides. The Catholics get a freepass because they have so much influence and power in American politics. The FLDS don't.
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Priests who molest children ARE subject both to criminal law AND canon law. Molesting children is NOT a part of the Catholic faith and they have FAR from gotten a free pass on it. It has been used as fuel by anti-Catholic bigots throughout the English-speaking world... The FLDS holds that child brides and polygamy are parts of the faith. Comparing apples and oranges you are.

Testimonial evidence from priests involved in a crime IS evidence. If the FLDS' religious beliefs were such that they believed they must videotape sex with their underage brides, it would be ABSURD to argue that such evidence is protected from use in a court of law. That is EXACTLY the type of argument that Catholics must argue for to be consistent in their exemptions for criminal confessions. When put in sch a light it becomes patently obvious how inconsistent and wrong such an exemption is.
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If the priest heard it in Confession, it is protected under Canon law as well as Civil law in many countries (including the United States).

(note: laws cannot be made to target or discriminate a particular religion. That is unconstitutional.)
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There is no establishment of religion in laws to protect the sanctity of the Confessional.

No one is required to report crimes. What they are required to do is testify in a court of law if subpoenaed.
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If a priest testified to something he heard in Confession (likely inadmissable as hearsay anyway), he would be subject to defrocking after a Canon law trial...
 
I think someone has forgotten Luke 17:2:

It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
 
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