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Thread: Vatican warned Irish bishops not to report abuse

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    Re: Vatican warned Irish bishops not to report abuse

    How revolting and sad. It's truly ashame that the Catholic church does this. Biblical doctrine says that those who do things like this should be dealt with and not swept under the rug. Methinks the Pope should read Corinthians (both of them).
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    Re: Vatican warned Irish bishops not to report abuse

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    How revolting and sad. It's truly ashame that the Catholic church does this. Biblical doctrine says that those who do things like this should be dealt with and not swept under the rug. Methinks the Pope should read Corinthians (both of them).
    How dare you put the Christian faith of ONE BIJILION PEOPLE behind the welfare of the kids they're supposed to be taking care of?
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    Re: Vatican warned Irish bishops not to report abuse

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    How dare you put the Christian faith of ONE BIJILION PEOPLE behind the welfare of the kids they're supposed to be taking care of?
    I dare because I care
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  4. #44
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    Re: Vatican warned Irish bishops not to report abuse

    Quote Originally Posted by spud_meister View Post
    So the part about mandatory reporting (which doesn't include confession) of paedophiles being immoral, is what? Pixie dust? Or do you think priests should be above the law?
    No, priests are NOT above the law. However, reporting should and must be done within the laws of the Catholic church. People criticize the church for not taking action against the priests. What many people don't understand is that Canon law MUST be followed by bishops and other Church officials and it can sometimes be slow. The Church takes its time so as to not make mistakes. Were mistakes made here? Yes. However, remember that the Church is also founded on the notion of forgiveness. 'Forgive us as we forgive those who trespass against us..." Those are not empty words to the Church.
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    Re: Vatican warned Irish bishops not to report abuse

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    No, priests are NOT above the law. However, reporting should and must be done within the laws of the Catholic church. People criticize the church for not taking action against the priests. What many people don't understand is that Canon law MUST be followed by bishops and other Church officials and it can sometimes be slow. The Church takes its time so as to not make mistakes. Were mistakes made here? Yes. However, remember that the Church is also founded on the notion of forgiveness. 'Forgive us as we forgive those who trespass against us..." Those are not empty words to the Church.
    Well the church's laws aren't working, and forgiveness doesn't really help the victims, does it? Reporting should be done by the law, it isn't church law that was broken, it was criminal law, and it should be pursued through the proper authorities ie. the police. And the church doesn't really have a great track record when it comes to providing justice to it's own, does it?
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    Re: Vatican warned Irish bishops not to report abuse

    Quote Originally Posted by spud_meister View Post
    Well the church's laws aren't working, and forgiveness doesn't really help the victims, does it? Reporting should be done by the law, it isn't church law that was broken, it was criminal law, and it should be pursued through the proper authorities ie. the police. And the church doesn't really have a great track record when it comes to providing justice to it's own, does it?
    Actually, both Canon AND Civil law were broken. However, bishops are required to work within Canon law before punishment can be meted out to a priest within the Church. Actually, on the whole, the Church has a pretty good track record over the centuries. However, some people may be disatisfied (as I am at times) with the glacial pace of that system...
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    Re: Vatican warned Irish bishops not to report abuse

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    I forgot it was a basic Catholic tenet to protect corrupt priests responsible for the rape of children. My bad! Oh I get it now.. it's okay to ignore the fact that priests are raping kids if it'll save the Catholic religion...

    And Anti-Catholic? My wife is a Catholic. She's just not a blind defender of criminals and rapists. Unlike yourself.
    Nor am I. However, there are procedures to be followed and I prefer that they be followed.



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    Re: Vatican warned Irish bishops not to report abuse

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    You do understand that the Church teaches that one MUST go to Confession, MUST! It is a requirement of the Faith and it is through Confession and Reconciliation that one can re-seal his/her relationship with God.
    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    If there is evidence of abuse, bring it, but NOT what is said in the Confessional...
    I didn't know it was mandatory but that doesn't change the basis of my argument: that invoking religion isn't a valid excuse to supersede CRIMINAL law. We see this time and time again in rulings. One of the ONLY exceptions is Native American peyote use which is reasonable since it is a victimless crime. Peyote use for religion doesn't involve the systematic rape or conspiracy to rape children.

    If a religion believed it was mandatory to make human sacrifices we wouldn't give it protection from criminal law because its their honest and sacred belief. Religion is NOT an excuse to supersede criminal laws. Period. E.G., we prosecute FLDS members for having sex with underage brides. The Catholics get a freepass because they have so much influence and power in American politics. The FLDS don't.

    Testimonial evidence from priests involved in a crime IS evidence. If the FLDS' religious beliefs were such that they believed they must videotape sex with their underage brides, it would be ABSURD to argue that such evidence is protected from use in a court of law. That is EXACTLY the type of argument that Catholics must argue for to be consistent in their exemptions for criminal confessions. When put in sch a light it becomes patently obvious how inconsistent and wrong such an exemption is.

    (note: laws cannot be made to target or discriminate a particular religion. That is unconstitutional.)

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Forcing priests to report the contents of Confession to civil law authorities is a grave violation of the faith of the Confessional and a violation of the freedom of religion.
    No one is required to report crimes. What they are required to do is testify in a court of law if subpoenaed.
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    Re: Vatican warned Irish bishops not to report abuse

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    I didn't know it was mandatory but that doesn't change the basis of my argument: that invoking religion isn't a valid excuse to supersede CRIMINAL law. We see this time and time again in rulings. One of the ONLY exceptions is Native American peyote use which is reasonable since it is a victimless crime. Peyote use for religion doesn't involve the systematic rape or conspiracy to rape children.
    And priests who molest children ARE subject to criminal law. The point is that if officials of the Church are going to report it, it must be consistant with the tenants of Canon law.

    If a religion believed it was mandatory to make human sacrifices we wouldn't give it protection from criminal law because its their honest and sacred belief. Religion is NOT an excuse to supersede criminal laws. Period. E.G., we prosecute FLDS members for having sex with underage brides. The Catholics get a freepass because they have so much influence and power in American politics. The FLDS don't.
    Priests who molest children ARE subject both to criminal law AND canon law. Molesting children is NOT a part of the Catholic faith and they have FAR from gotten a free pass on it. It has been used as fuel by anti-Catholic bigots throughout the English-speaking world... The FLDS holds that child brides and polygamy are parts of the faith. Comparing apples and oranges you are.

    Testimonial evidence from priests involved in a crime IS evidence. If the FLDS' religious beliefs were such that they believed they must videotape sex with their underage brides, it would be ABSURD to argue that such evidence is protected from use in a court of law. That is EXACTLY the type of argument that Catholics must argue for to be consistent in their exemptions for criminal confessions. When put in sch a light it becomes patently obvious how inconsistent and wrong such an exemption is.
    If the priest heard it in Confession, it is protected under Canon law as well as Civil law in many countries (including the United States).

    (note: laws cannot be made to target or discriminate a particular religion. That is unconstitutional.)
    There is no establishment of religion in laws to protect the sanctity of the Confessional.

    No one is required to report crimes. What they are required to do is testify in a court of law if subpoenaed.
    If a priest testified to something he heard in Confession (likely inadmissable as hearsay anyway), he would be subject to defrocking after a Canon law trial...
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    Re: Vatican warned Irish bishops not to report abuse

    I think someone has forgotten Luke 17:2:

    It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

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