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Thread: Judge says government need not disclose air traveler security images

  1. #21
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    Re: Judge says government need not disclose air traveler security images

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    There is simply no constitutional violation here, it completely boggles me how frivolous this argument is.
    And what reason is that? I keep seeing the "it's nt a violation" line repeated over and over, but never see substrance behind the why.

    IMO, if a cop claims that he or she needs to kick you in the nads to complete an investigation, and you consent, the cop still broke the law - same with scams that involve your credit card information, you consented, but that doesn't make it legal per-se.

    [I am only attempting to demonstrate that legality or lack therefore can not be derived solely on consent]

    OTOH, one can argue about the constitutionality of what can be deemed a [digital] strip search by people whom are not law enforcement outside of what is reasonably [even going so far as to demonstrate that the reasonableness requirements in the document giving the TSA its power is not being met]
    Last edited by Travelsonic; 01-14-11 at 01:43 PM.
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  2. #22
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    Re: Judge says government need not disclose air traveler security images

    Quote Originally Posted by Travelsonic View Post
    And what reason is that? I keep seeing the "it's nt a violation" line repeated over and over, but never see substrance behind the why.
    Reverse that question and please explain to me where any violation of the fourth amendment is taking place? The searches are consented to and thus cannot be a violation of the fourth amendment. Fourth amendment violations can only take place when the party being searched refuses to give consent to the search.
    Last edited by Guy Incognito; 01-14-11 at 01:49 PM.

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    Re: Judge says government need not disclose air traveler security images

    Quote Originally Posted by Travelsonic View Post
    IMO, if a cop claims that he or she needs to kick you in the nads to complete an investigation, and you consent, the cop still broke the law
    Maybe, maybe not, but there is no constitutional issue there because there is no search. The fourth amendment doesn't apply in this situation but for a different reason. Here, there is a search, but the search is consented to. Whenever there is consent to a search, it removes the possibility of the fourth amendment being applicable. -

    Quote Originally Posted by Travelsonic View Post
    same with scams that involve your credit card information, you consented, but that doesn't make it legal per-se.
    But it's not the same. Credit card scams involve consent obtained fraudulently.
    Last edited by Guy Incognito; 01-14-11 at 01:53 PM.

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    Re: Judge says government need not disclose air traveler security images

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Fourth amendment violations can only take place when the party being searched refuses to give consent to the search.
    That's true. The constiuttionality of tehse searches isn't really the issue, IMO. It's the fact that peopel are in a position where they have no choice but to consent or find some alternative means of travel AND the fact that there is some question as to what, exactly, they are consenting to.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

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    Re: Judge says government need not disclose air traveler security images

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Now isn't this what is called "irony"? Here people are bi***inng and complaining about privacy violations and then when the TSA doesn't release photoes of peple naked you bi*** and complain about it. Talk about a double standard.
    It's not a double standard. The point is that we want to SEE what they see. It's information control, which is not really something that should be championed. They tell us it's this and that, but they won't show us the unadulterated pictures so that we can see if it really is. We need to know what they are doing, we need to know how far they are going if we are going to have any chance at controlling the government. Those pictures should be released, I'm thinking the reason they are not is because of the outrage it would most likely generate.

    Double standard...hardly. Only if you don't think about it.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    Re: Judge says government need not disclose air traveler security images

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    What strawman???? You say these scans are unConstitutional. You call up the 4th Amendment. So...here it is:



    Now! I repeat myself (because you are ignoring the truth of my post): Tell me WHERE in the 4th Amendment it says body scans can't be used...with the full consent of the participants. Oh, and before you use THIS argument, cite where in the Constitution it says that everyone has an unfettered right to fly. I'll wait.

    I guess an MRI is unConstitutional. Huh?
    How in the HELL will the 4th amendment, ratified, 200 years before these machines were invented, going to address SPECIFICALLY THAT? C'mon Maggie, you're smarter than this. That has to be one of the dumbest arguments I've seen on this site in a long time. An MRI is a medically necessary thing decided on between you and a medical doctor. A full body scan is not, and is mandated by a perceived level of risk that you pose without any due process or proof that you are a threat to that flight. After you spent hundreds on a plane ticket, if you want to exercise the right that ticket gives you, (and yes, once you buy a ticket you have a right to fly, or a full refund granted, so if you refuse the nudie booth you are entitled to your money back. You think that's going to happen? I think not!) you are subjected to this full body nudie booth.

    If you don't see the difference then you are not worthy of debate.

    How dare the gov't not mention full body scanners 200 years ago!
    Last edited by dontworrybehappy; 01-14-11 at 03:05 PM.

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    Re: Judge says government need not disclose air traveler security images

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    What strawman????
    The one where you made it about some "right to fly" that was never mentioned, nor implied, when the issue clearly was about accountability with regards to a federal agency who has set itself up for security screening at airports [and increasingly at other places, like bus depots].

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    You say these scans are unConstitutional. You call up the 4th Amendment. So...here it is:

    Now! I repeat myself (because you are ignoring the truth of my post): Tell me WHERE in the 4th Amendment it says body scans can't be used...with the full consent of the participants.
    It doesn't, but that is meaningless as the 4th is used as a base used in case law to define the boundaries in which law enforcement and non-law-enforcement [like the TSA] can/can't operate. The amendment is generalized. The applications of it are not.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    I guess an MRI is unConstitutional. Huh?
    Wow, really? You are making a point by comparing two different things, completely different set of circumstances? Comparing medical professionals to government agents?
    Nationalism in high dosages may be hazardous to your health. Please consult a psychiatrist before beginning a regular regimen, and if feelings of elitism and douchbaggery continue, discontinue immediately before you become unable to do so on your own.

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    Re: Judge says government need not disclose air traveler security images

    Quote Originally Posted by Travelsonic View Post
    Wow, really? You are making a point by comparing two different things, completely different set of circumstances? Comparing medical professionals to government agents?
    Actually, the MRI is a perfect analogy. It is a body scan that you consent to. They are precisely the same set of circumstances from a fourth amendment perspective.

  9. #29
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    Re: Judge says government need not disclose air traveler security images

    Quote Originally Posted by dontworrybehappy View Post
    How in the HELL will the 4th amendment, ratified, 200 years before these machines were invented, going to address SPECIFICALLY THAT? C'mon Maggie, you're smarter than this. That has to be one of the dumbest arguments I've seen on this site in a long time. An MRI is a medically necessary thing decided on between you and a medical doctor. A full body scan is not, and is mandated by a perceived level of risk that you pose without any due process or proof that you are a threat to that flight. After you spent hundreds on a plane ticket, if you want to exercise the right that ticket gives you, (and yes, once you buy a ticket you have a right to fly, or a full refund granted, so if you refuse the nudie booth you are entitled to your money back. You think that's going to happen? I think not!) you are subjected to this full body nudie booth.

    If you don't see the difference then you are not worthy of debate.

    How dare the gov't not mention full body scanners 200 years ago!
    Reading comprehension problem? Did you not notice the bolded part?
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    Re: Judge says government need not disclose air traveler security images

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    That's true. The constiuttionality of tehse searches isn't really the issue, IMO. It's the fact that peopel are in a position where they have no choice but to consent or find some alternative means of travel AND the fact that there is some question as to what, exactly, they are consenting to.
    Bold part: Since flying is not a constitutional right your concern here is misplaced. Civilians do not own US airspace.

    Underlined part: You should read this...TSA Pilots Millimeter Wave Technology at Miami International Airport; Advanced Technology X-Ray Also Deployed

    To ensure privacy, security officers view images from a remote location. From that location, the security officer cannot ascertain the identity of the passenger, either visually or otherwise, but can communicate with a fellow officer at the checkpoint if an alarm is presented. A security algorithm will be applied to the image to blur the face of each passenger, further protecting privacy. Images can not be stored, printed or transmitted and are deleted forever once cleared.
    What more do you want? I would imagine that the tests that this thread mentions doesn't have this algorithm so it would be worthless for comparing to what is actually being used. As such the use of such photo's could only be used to purposely misconstrue and be used to villify the TSA.

    Instead of going after these things how about a compromise? Charter, hire, or make an independent group to randomly go to the airports that full body scanners are being used in order to check to make sure that protocols are being followed by the TSA. They could show up without warning at any time. In fact lets go one step further and apply this group to ALL areas that the TSA is in period. They can check the procedures and protocols of the TSA all over the place. They don't even have to warn the TSA that they are there until after they themselves go through the check point to "test" what is being done. (edit note: after all, normal police agencies have their own "police" that investigates policemen why not the TSA also?)
    Last edited by Kal'Stang; 01-14-11 at 07:41 PM.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

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