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Thread: Obama, In A Blow To Closing Guantanamo, Signs Law

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    Re: Obama, In A Blow To Closing Guantanamo, Signs Law

    I think if people really knew about how the Bush/Cheney administration co-opted the judiciary in order to keep terrorist from every leaving Gitmo no matter what the evidence proved or disproved, they'd be very surprised.

    Closing Gitmo will continue to be difficult as long as this country is at war because of the purposeful legal rangling the previous administration did. Most of the men held in Gitmo will never receive a trial (let alone a fair one) because the rules have been set in such a way that none will likely ever see the evidence held against them because most of it has been labelled as "classified". As such, the Supreme Court upheld a ruling that detainees nor their defense attorney's are able to see classified evidence unless they have the proper security clearance. Moreover, even if the attorney's got the right clearance, the "classified" evidence that is suppose to convict these men can never be presented at trial for reasons of "national security". So, unless the SC overturns that ruling, any White House administration/DOJ who tries to hold trial against a Gitmo detainee has a steep uphill battle on his hands.

    And if that wasn't bad enough, you have the issue of the rules for military tribunels being established by civilian trial counsels who've never dealt with "war crimes" issues instead of allowing the JAG court to write the procedures. The Bush/Cheney administration never intended to release the detainees or allow them a fair trial, not while the War on Terror was ongoing and certainly not while they were in office.

    Again, if people really knew the truth where Gitmo is concerned, they'd think differently as to why Pres. Obama is having such a difficult time closing it down. Frankly, I think he's stuck on this issue until the war in Afghanistan ends. And by then it may be someone else's problem and they'll have the same problem closing it let alone bringing any of the detainees to trial.

    If people only knew...
    Last edited by Objective Voice; 01-13-11 at 06:03 PM.

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    Re: Obama, In A Blow To Closing Guantanamo, Signs Law

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    I think if people really knew about how the Bush/Cheney administration co-opted the judiciary in order to keep terrorist from every leaving Gitmo no matter what the evidence proved or disproved, they'd be very surprised.

    Closing Gitmo will continue to be difficult as long as this country is at war because of the purposeful legal rangling the previous administration did. Most of the men held in Gitmo will never receive a trial (let alone a fair one) because the rules have been set in such a way that none will likely ever see the evidence held against them because most of it has been labelled as "classified". As such, the Supreme Court upheld a ruling that detainees nor their defense attorney's are able to see classified evidence unless they have the proper security clearance. Moreover, even if the attorney's got the right clearance, the "classified" evidence that is suppose to convict these men can never be presented at trial for reasons of "national security". So, unless the SC overturns that ruling, any White House administration/DOJ who tries to hold trial against a Gitmo detainee has a steep uphill battle on his hands.

    And if that wasn't bad enough, you have the issue of the rules for military tribunels being established by civilian trial counsels who've never dealt with "war crimes" issues instead of allowing the JAG court to write the procedures. The Bush/Cheney administration never intended to release the detainees or allow them a fair trial, not while the War on Terror was ongoing and certainly not while they were in office.

    Again, if people really knew the truth where Gitmo is concerned, they'd think differently as to why Pres. Obama is having such a difficult time closing it down. Frankly, I think he's stuck on this issue until the war in Afghanistan ends. And by then it may be someone else's problem and they'll have the same problem closing it let alone bringing any of the detainees to trial.

    If people only knew...
    Yeah...those poor guys...

    And this president was so distraught he created another version of GITMO in the middle east so that they never got close to the US and constitutional rights...

    But...never mind about that...

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    Re: Obama, In A Blow To Closing Guantanamo, Signs Law

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Yeah...those poor guys...

    And this president was so distraught he created another version of GITMO in the middle east so that they never got close to the US and constitutional rights...

    But...never mind about that...
    Created? To what do you refer?

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Obama, In A Blow To Closing Guantanamo, Signs Law

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    He's learning - getting an education. All the Alinsky playbook rehetoric that got him elected was just that - a big "rope and dope". Now reality is, he cannot close it and he's violating the SCOTUS ruling and habius corpus just like Bush did according to the left pundits. Obama will be a poster boy for a classic and almost perfect election to become President, and a classic failure at leadership and executing a Presidency. Ultimately he talks too much, made too many promises and up until now had his bacon pulled out of the fire by Pelosi and Reid. Without those two, he'd have already been run out of the White House.
    This probably serves BHO well.

    With this he will be moving toward the center, a position he took during his first election campaign for the Presidency. It seems that he will continue to move to the right in preparation for his next Presidential run.

    It makes sense for him to appear centrist during his final two years, in order to get re-elected, but if he ever gets a second term then he will be more leftist than ever.

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    Re: Obama, In A Blow To Closing Guantanamo, Signs Law

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Yeah...those poor guys...

    And this president was so distraught he created another version of GITMO in the middle east so that they never got close to the US and constitutional rights...

    But...never mind about that...
    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Created? To what do you refer?
    First I'd heard about that one myself.

    BTW, I wasn't defending Pres. Obama's actions (or inaction since this issue is about him not being able to close Gitmo) as much as I've been trying to point out that his hands are largely tied because of the legal actions of his predecessor.

    There are just alot of things the public doesn't know about Gitmo - a illegitimate prison located outside the legal/territorial bounds of the U.S., a prison purposely choosen for one reason and one reason only - to keep the legal-beagles from every easily securing the release of detainees no matter how much or how little evidence there is against them.

    No detainee will ever get released by trial w/o the government setting them free and even then what country will take them without risking come political fall-out of their own? We can't keep them here forever, and we won't send them back to Afghanistan while the war there continues and until they go to trial we can't execute them? So, what alternative is left?

    Hold them in Gitmo indefinitely until they die...

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    Re: Obama, In A Blow To Closing Guantanamo, Signs Law

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    First I'd heard about that one myself.

    ...
    I think he's refering to one openned by Bush. But I would like him to clarify.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Obama, In A Blow To Closing Guantanamo, Signs Law

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    First I'd heard about that one myself.

    BTW, I wasn't defending Pres. Obama's actions (or inaction since this issue is about him not being able to close Gitmo) as much as I've been trying to point out that his hands are largely tied because of the legal actions of his predecessor.

    There are just alot of things the public doesn't know about Gitmo - a illegitimate prison located outside the legal/territorial bounds of the U.S., a prison purposely choosen for one reason and one reason only - to keep the legal-beagles from every easily securing the release of detainees no matter how much or how little evidence there is against them.

    No detainee will ever get released by trial w/o the government setting them free and even then what country will take them without risking come political fall-out of their own? We can't keep them here forever, and we won't send them back to Afghanistan while the war there continues and until they go to trial we can't execute them? So, what alternative is left?

    Hold them in Gitmo indefinitely until they die...
    Yeah, but that's different.
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    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Obama, In A Blow To Closing Guantanamo, Signs Law

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Yeah, but that's different.
    How so?

    Where Pres. Obama's attempts to close Gitmo are concerned, his hands are tied because by law he has to follow the legal precedent that was set before him. Even as President, there is a limit to what he can do - or in the case of Gitmo and all the legal wranglings, undo. I believe he has tried to find other ways to bring about fair trials, i.e. trying cases in civilian courts even after allowing the JAG corps to intervene, but even then there are limits to what the defense attorneys can do, what evidence can and can't be presented despite some evidenciary rule changes in civilian courts.

    So, while it's true Pres. Obama hasn't been able to keep this campaign promise, folks have to understand the reasons why he hasn't been able to do so and why by most accounts it appears he's doing the same things GW. Bush did - hold them indefinitely until he can ship them off to other countries to imprison them abroad or hold them under house arrest indefinitely. He really can't win on this one, but he's still trying to find a way to do the right thing. I just don't think he'll be able to until the war is over.

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    Re: Obama, In A Blow To Closing Guantanamo, Signs Law

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    How so?

    Where Pres. Obama's attempts to close Gitmo are concerned, his hands are tied because by law he has to follow the legal precedent that was set before him. Even as President, there is a limit to what he can do - or in the case of Gitmo and all the legal wranglings, undo. I believe he has tried to find other ways to bring about fair trials, i.e. trying cases in civilian courts even after allowing the JAG corps to intervene, but even then there are limits to what the defense attorneys can do, what evidence can and can't be presented despite some evidenciary rule changes in civilian courts.

    So, while it's true Pres. Obama hasn't been able to keep this campaign promise, folks have to understand the reasons why he hasn't been able to do so and why by most accounts it appears he's doing the same things GW. Bush did - hold them indefinitely until he can ship them off to other countries to imprison them abroad or hold them under house arrest indefinitely. He really can't win on this one, but he's still trying to find a way to do the right thing. I just don't think he'll be able to until the war is over.
    He didn't know any of this while he was campaigning for president, making all the promises, and despite being a law professor?

    You're certainly cutting the man a lot of slack!

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    Re: Obama, In A Blow To Closing Guantanamo, Signs Law

    the reason only 48 capitol hill democrats were willing to go on record in favor of obama's half baked blueprints for the closing of gitmo does not revolve around evidentiaries and admissibilities but is instead at heart, as always, a matter of POLITICS

    341 to 48 in the house, STILL controlled by nancy (at the time)

    VOICE VOTE upstairs (where dems still sat 59)

    sorry

    you probably don't recall may of 09 when the senate (with SIXTY blues) voted down funding for boarding up gitmo, NINETY TO SIX

    Democrats lined up with Republicans in the 90-6 vote that came on the heels of a similar move a week ago in the House, underscoring widespread apprehension among Obama's congressional allies over voters' strong feelings about bringing detainees to the U.S. from the prison in Cuba.
    Senate Votes To Block Funds For Guantanamo Closure

    the senators could not assent, they said, because the white house had failed to address the most basic logistics, ie, the how's, when's, where's

    one armed daniel inouye, chair of senate appropriations, who "favors closing guantanamo," explained: "the fact that the administration has not offered a workable plan at this point made that decision rather easy"

    in my opinion, to appreciate really obama's difficulties here you must first look to the major players in NEW YORK STATE democratic politics

    stay up

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