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Thread: Obama, In A Blow To Closing Guantanamo, Signs Law

  1. #171
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    Re: Obama, In A Blow To Closing Guantanamo, Signs Law

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prof View Post
    BBC News - Barack Obama orders 30,000 more troops to Afghanistan

    i know, boo, i know...

    you don't see the connection

    LOL!
    No, I don't see you making any connection.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Obama, In A Blow To Closing Guantanamo, Signs Law

    well, i'd SPELL it out for you

    but that'd be RUNDANT

    LOL!

    what's significant is that obama sees

    he must lack core values

  3. #173
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    Re: Obama, In A Blow To Closing Guantanamo, Signs Law

    From the yahoo source;
    Obama has vowed to close the U.S. military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, which has drawn international condemnation for the treatment of detainees, but has met stiff resistance at home.


    Oh, and by the way, just whatever happened to all that "international condemnation" for guantanamo bay anyway? Have the europeans just stopped carping about it because they prefer an obama over a bush? Or....are the mainstream media just not reporting any more "international condemnation?" Just what the hell happened to all that "international condemnation"
    Last edited by Dutch; 01-21-11 at 01:35 PM.
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    Re: Obama, In A Blow To Closing Guantanamo, Signs Law

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    It speaks to my point. They don't opperate anyway they want. They are not only subject to civilian control, advancing civilian goals, but to rule of law. So, we cannot and should not simply say go, it's yours.
    But no one is debating "your point". It is agreed by everyone that the military should not be above the law. Also no one has said "Go, it's yours".

    Can you please explain why you are not using quotes but instead arguing points that were never raised? I cannot debate phantom arguments.
    Not sure I've stated who was good guys and bad guys, but if you don't know that the novel speaks to Dresden, you don't understand the novel.
    If you want to debate Dresden then do so, but according to the facts and not a science fiction novel

    Yes, may. No one who isn't a terrorist really supports terrorism. Islam, as I point out is a relgion, like any other. Being against a religion is kind of silly.
    You didn't need to point out either that Islam is a religion. I think pretty much every literate person in the world understands that. Why bother adding points that need not be made? And who is against Islam? Are you really reading the posts?

    You make no real distinction here. There is no country of Islam. No borders. No flag. No ruler, or ruling body, or anyone who can surrender Islam. yes, some terrorist are Islaminc, but they are not Islam. It's a fundamental flaw in your thinking. Many of the KKK are christian, so are many skin heads. But neither are Christianity.
    There is no country called Islam, but there are certainly Islamic dominated countries. And those Islamic terrorists you referred to are the ones we are after.And of course the KKK and skinheads are not relevant too the discussion, nor are there countries where they dominate.

    Yes, itelligent consequences, directed at those specifically who were behind the act. Not just any country we thought we could use or abuse. And you should know that all kinds of groups of people exhibit unreliable behavior and lie.
    Those who were behind the act, an act of war, were going to be tried in NYC to allow them a political platform and upset an entire city. This would made a helluva precedent. Terrorists have homes and support and we must attack them where they live. I hope you are not making the claim that it is only terrorists who attack and there are no support groups, or governments, behind them.

    No, not near as much as you seem to believe. Our enemies actually benefitted greatly form the acts of the former administration.
    Really? How so?
    And how do you know who or what exactly they are talking. We know, as a fact, that some innocnet people were talken and abused, with at least two killed. As we've seen next to trials, no evidence, next to nothing on the vast majority, exactly how do you know, other than that blind trust you have?
    Innocent people, if they are innocent, will always be killed in a war. Two is practically nothing compared with 9/11 and the hundreds of other terrorist acts directed against innocent and unwary people. Consider them occasionally. And my trust doesn't have to be blind.

    Leaders should never have that kind of trust from us. We should always be skeptical, especially when we've seen them clearly less than honest and open, and knowing that they've made more than a few mistakes.
    We can chose who to treat with some skepticism. You chose the military and I choose terrorists. And as for honesty and openness, dishonesty is encouraged in Islam (Al quaeda) and also by those who train the terrorists.

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    Re: Obama, In A Blow To Closing Guantanamo, Signs Law

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch View Post
    From the yahoo source;



    Oh, and by the way, just whatever happened to all that "international condemnation" for guantanamo bay anyway? Have the europeans just stopped carping about it because they prefer an obama over a bush? Or....are the mainstream media just not reporting any more "international condemnation?" Just what the hell happened to all that "international condemnation"
    More military was sent over to Afghanistan (30,000) yet few, if any, terrorists are arriving in Gitmo anymore.

    It would seem apparent that instant justice is being meted out in the fields of war rather than allowing radical Islamists and the Left to use the terrorists as political propaganda against the Allies. The Bush Administration should have done the same thing.

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    Re: Obama, In A Blow To Closing Guantanamo, Signs Law

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    But no one is debating "your point". It is agreed by everyone that the military should not be above the law. Also no one has said "Go, it's yours".

    Can you please explain why you are not using quotes but instead arguing points that were never raised? I cannot debate phantom arguments.
    I actually believe I am addressing a point brought up in this thought:

    When we are at war, and indeed we are at war with Islamist terrorists, we are better off to trust our military than not.
    Both rule law and civilan control won't allow that.

    If you want to debate Dresden then do so, but according to the facts and not a science fiction novel
    It goes to the claim you made that we don't oppose or openly oppose these things in the past. We did. Didn't have instant media, and like today, we often spoke in oter medium, like in novels. But, people did nenounce wrong acts even then.

    You didn't need to point out either that Islam is a religion. I think pretty much every literate person in the world understands that. Why bother adding points that need not be made? And who is against Islam? Are you really reading the posts?
    You said we were fighting Islam. That is fighting a religion.

    There is no country called Islam, but there are certainly Islamic dominated countries. And those Islamic terrorists you referred to are the ones we are after.And of course the KKK and skinheads are not relevant too the discussion, nor are there countries where they dominate.
    None of those countries attacked us either. And those terrorist who attacked us came form SA, not Iraq. Not Afghanistan. And they can be found in nearly every country in the world. Again, no country attacked us. And you miss the point with the KKK and the skin heads. If I were to say that we need to stop Christains, or fight Christians, because of acts by people in the KKK or skinheads, then I would eb doing what you're doing with Islam.


    Those who were behind the act, an act of war, were going to be tried in NYC to allow them a political platform and upset an entire city. This would made a helluva precedent. Terrorists have homes and support and we must attack them where they live. I hope you are not making the claim that it is only terrorists who attack and there are no support groups, or governments, behind them.
    So, trying Mcvey in Oklamhoma city would have been too upsetting to them, and allow him a platform so we shouldn't have done it? Your argument makes no sense to me. It shoudln't make sense to anyone.


    Really? How so?
    As noted by Scheuer in Imperial Hubris, it allowed OBL a second bite at the apples, giving him a place to hurt us and bled us finnacially. Frankly, he had no way to hurt us so without brining our armed forces closer to him. It helped him on the propaganda front, and as the CIA pointed out some time ago, those trained in Iraq will be killing us for a long time to come. People not associated with any terrorist group prior to us invading Iraq answered the call to join, thus helping OBl with recriutment. it also took a small, limited organization and elevated their status, as being worth of being at war with a country as large as the US. And these are just a few ways.

    Innocent people, if they are innocent, will always be killed in a war. Two is practically nothing compared with 9/11 and the hundreds of other terrorist acts directed against innocent and unwary people. Consider them occasionally. And my trust doesn't have to be blind.
    Which is why war should be used only when neccessary. but they weren't kiled during a war, like in a firefight. but were picked up, while working, wrongly accused, tortured and killed. This is and should be illegal and denounced, always. Not excused. And it is aprt of the problem with having a place not subject to oversight, left to be run by those hammers who always see a nail, even when one isn';t there.


    We can chose who to treat with some skepticism. You chose the military and I choose terrorists. And as for honesty and openness, dishonesty is encouraged in Islam (Al quaeda) and also by those who train the terrorists.
    Al queads is Islam? See you're doing it again, making the two the same thing. They are not.

    Second point. Deception is taught to many, including those in the US military. How to resist torture is also taught, also to the US military. This is understood all around. It is not the religion, Islam, that teaches deception. As well read as you are, you still need to make the proper distinctions.

    terrorism is nothing more than a tactic. Christians used in in the conflict between Ireland and great Brittin. During that conflict, deception was used, even taught as a tactic. but we would not say, and be correct, that Christianity teaches deception.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Obama, In A Blow To Closing Guantanamo, Signs Law

    Obama get that gitmo closed yet?
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: Obama, In A Blow To Closing Guantanamo, Signs Law

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    Obama get that gitmo closed yet?
    I don't hear much any more from leftists about closing Gitmo. Why is that?

    Hey leftists, why are you folks so quiet now about closing Gitmo? Are you afraid of what we on the right will call you? Hypocrites.

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    Re: Obama, In A Blow To Closing Guantanamo, Signs Law

    In my personal opinion, what has happened, is that people are now finding out .. including Obama himself that he is a great campaigner, and a lousy administrator. He is finding out that promising something, is much easier then delivering. The sad part, is he has not learned enough... because we are still getting much of the same in the way of promises.

    To the poster that keeps using congress as an excuse for not closing Gitmo, in a way I'm hoping you really believe this. Cause if you do, then you will stop blaming Bush for the Iraqi war. After all the congressional vote was *77-23 to authorize President Bush to attack Iraq* and the house vote was 296 to 133. Seeing Gitmo wasn't opened until 2002, it's a safe assumption to say that Gitmo would not have be in the news if congress had voted not to the war in Iraq, therefore Gitmo is a result of the congressional vote to go to war with Iraq, and not President Bush. Or at least distribute the blame equally, but I really don't expect to see that happen.... -chuckles- enough of sarcasm

    The one that seems to make the most sense in this thread is tlmorg02, and should be applauded for his common sense thinking.

    Some times there are things called a necessary evil, we may not like or agree with them, but they serve a purpose for a problem that seems at the time to have no answers. This is the case with Gitmo, it served the purpose at the time, as did some of the actions taken there. In hindsight, we can look at that problem and see better ways of handling it, the luxury of hindsight isn't available to those making the decisions at the time.

    As to the war on terrorism, and like it or not, it is a war, because of the nature of this war, people are going to have to accept that to win it, we are going to have to do somethings that are distasteful, things that are borderline wrong and things that some will say we shouldn't do. As Americans we better get use to the fact that this is going to get dirty.

    To those self righteous believers that think we can fight this war and win it cleanly, I would like to talk to you after a terrorist bomb takes one of your loved ones, and see if you still feel the same way. Because the vast majority of friends and family of the 9/11 victims don't take terrorism as lightly as you.

  10. #180
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    Re: Obama, In A Blow To Closing Guantanamo, Signs Law

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    Obama get that gitmo closed yet?
    Is it closed yet? Is it closed yet? Is it closed yet?
    He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire. ~ Winston Churchill

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