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Thread: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

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    Re: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    ...because you're obviously far more misinformed than you want to let on.

    Gun crime is not something that can be legislated out of existence by any means. Bad guys will get guns, period. The solution is more guns in the hands of an educated populace.
    This is the only option proven to work.
    ok, show us the proof that this 'more guns on the streets' approach works to curb gun crimes
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    See this I can respond to because I'm not going to advocate anything other than a honest view of reality. You say its the only solution, but its not. What it is the only solution your political bias and personally ideology will allow you to see. If I was judging you as if you were an analyst, I'd say at best it simply means you've looked at all the options and have made an opinion, something no analyst is supposed to do, but still looked at every option. At worst you had an opinion and then looked at the options you liked. Of course you aren't an analyst and have every right to an opinion, however its my opinion that stating with an opinion then finding whatever suits your opinion is the wrong way to go about business. And thats what I'm going to argue.

    So back to the original point, its NOT the only solution is simply the one you like best. For example you have China which has found a different solution to the problem of gun crime, and if we only look at gun crime as a measuring stick its far more successful. Of course you and me consider personal freedom and the power of government much heavier than the Chinese do, but my point is that its a solution.

    Staring Down the Barrel: the Rise of Guns in China - WSJ.com


    And just as a side note, just how familiar are you with my state's gun laws? You seem extremely confident that there's no improvement that can be made, I'm just curious how much you felt you had understand about our gun laws in Arizona before you felt confident enough to make that statement. For example I wonder if you could tell me how old an individual has to be before buying a semi-automatic pistol in Phoenix, and what specifically goes into and what does not go into the check a gun store owner does before a purchase. If I was right in front of you I'd ask those questions, but since you have google at your command its an easy task to simply find the answer and pretend you knew it all along. So do this for me instead, ask yourself could you have answered those questions? And ask yourself just how much you know about our gun laws in Arizona, and then honestly think "Do I really know AZ gun law so inside and out that I can honestly say "There's no improvement to be made" and actually have that statement backed by my personal knowledge?"

    Its up to you to be honest with yourself.
    That was a lot of fluff to simply dodge addressing my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    ok, show us the proof that this 'more guns on the streets' approach works to curb gun crimes
    I've posted the statistics many times.
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

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    Re: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    That was a lot of fluff to simply dodge addressing my point.
    You said, there's only one option. I showed you there was actually more than one. Get it now?

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    Re: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    You said, there's only one option. I showed you there was actually more than one. Get it now?
    If you took even the slightest look at the facts instead of relying on biased opinions and hyperbole, you'd know that only a fraction of a percentage of guns are bought with criminal intent in mind. In the cases where a legally purchased gun is used by the rightful owner in the commission of a crime, the “time-to-crime” of a firearm ranges from one to 12 years. It is exceptionally rare that a newly purchased firearm is used in a crime. It is not the job of the gun shop owner or the government to predict the future.
    Try again.
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

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    Re: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    Try again.
    Whos dodging points? I'm just simply trying to show there is more they one way to go about looking at this problem, and for someone whos posted no facts or figures for themselves or addressed the undeniable fact, as shown throughout the world, there are ways to make a society safer with less guns you like to talk about my problems with being too opinionated.

    I'll take it back to the beginning. You said there was only ONE solution to the problem of gun crime, I said no there's actually several you just think there's only one because of your political opinion. To demonstrate that I showed you an example, China, where they've eliminated almost all gun crime by adopting a very different solution. My goal being NOT to advocate one solution over the other, certainly not China's over ours, but simply to show you that you are allowing your opinion to affect what you see.

    All I'm trying to do is get you to say "In my opinion, this is the best solution" not "As a fact, this is the best solution." The fact that you use the word best should tell you its an opinion since the words, good, better, best, are entirely subjective. Like me saying "The best food in the world is pasta" and you saying "No the best is pizza" its just an opinion.

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    Re: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    ok, show us the proof that this 'more guns on the streets' approach works to curb gun crimes
    Cut and paste the tiny handful of studies/papers that have be debunked by economists and sociologists.

    Even the GW deniers have one wingnut at an Ivy League school. So what?

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    Re: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    Whos dodging points? I'm just simply trying to show there is more they one way to go about looking at this problem, and for someone whos posted no facts or figures for themselves or addressed the undeniable fact, as shown throughout the world, there are ways to make a society safer with less guns you like to talk about my problems with being too opinionated.

    I'll take it back to the beginning. You said there was only ONE solution to the problem of gun crime, I said no there's actually several you just think there's only one because of your political opinion. To demonstrate that I showed you an example, China, where they've eliminated almost all gun crime by adopting a very different solution. My goal being NOT to advocate one solution over the other, certainly not China's over ours, but simply to show you that you are allowing your opinion to affect what you see.

    All I'm trying to do is get you to say "In my opinion, this is the best solution" not "As a fact, this is the best solution." The fact that you use the word best should tell you its an opinion since the words, good, better, best, are entirely subjective. Like me saying "The best food in the world is pasta" and you saying "No the best is pizza" its just an opinion.
    One example: Remember the Rodney King riots in that city of Los Angeles? Do you remember every major news network repeatedly showing footage of Korean storeowners sitting on the roofs of their stores, holding what the media termed “assault weapons?” Those were the stores that survived being set on fire by rioters and none of those store owners were dragged into the street and beaten like others were.

    I've given you these same statistics before in another gun thread, which you quickly evacuated after being proven wrong. Would you like me to copy and paste them here so you can try again? You've had plenty of time to work up rebuttals.
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

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    Re: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    ok, show us the proof that this 'more guns on the streets' approach works to curb gun crimes
    Show us where gun control laws works to curb gun crimes.

    How many mass murders take place in, "gun free", zones?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    One example: Remember the Rodney King riots in that city of Los Angeles? Do you remember every major news network repeatedly showing footage of Korean storeowners sitting on the roofs of their stores, holding what the media termed “assault weapons?” Those were the stores that survived being set on fire by rioters and none of those store owners were dragged into the street and beaten like others were.

    I've given you these same statistics before in another gun thread, which you quickly evacuated after being proven wrong. Would you like me to copy and paste them here so you can try again? You've had plenty of time to work up rebuttals.
    I told you I'm not going to use this incident as a means to advocate policy. I am AGAIN simply trying to get you to acknowledge that there are solutions, even if you don't think they are the best, which would involve stricter gun laws. There's nothing wrong or against your political opinions by saying "Yes thats a solution, it decreases gun crimes, but it also does X, Y, Z, which I don't like."

    You keep thinking I'm arguing for stricter gun laws when in fact I'm not, and I'm not arguing for any kind of policy or law here.
    And I'd like to go back a few posts and ask again for you to explain how you understand my state's gun laws so well that you know for a fact there's no way to improve them.
    You see Im not arguing against your opinions on gun laws, Im simply disagreeing with how you arrive at them. And what I think is a clear lie that you understand my state's gun laws enough to justify a statement like "there's no way we can improve them."

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    Re: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    One example: Remember the Rodney King riots in that city of Los Angeles? Do you remember every major news network repeatedly showing footage of Korean storeowners sitting on the roofs of their stores, holding what the media termed “assault weapons?” Those were the stores that survived being set on fire by rioters and none of those store owners were dragged into the street and beaten like others were.

    I've given you these same statistics before in another gun thread, which you quickly evacuated after being proven wrong. Would you like me to copy and paste them here so you can try again? You've had plenty of time to work up rebuttals.
    yes, please post your cites which would prove that more guns on the streets will reduce the volume of gun crimes
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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