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Thread: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

  1. #21
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    Re: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    He purchased it legally, meaning the NICS didn't flag him.

    The question is, could his university mental health issue or his military service denial be something kept in a database that is added to the NICS system.

    No it is not. Beyond being a convicted felon there is nothing keeping a person from exercising their second amendment right.

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    Re: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    Better would be something which would have caught this guy, or in general would ensure this is less gun crime, of course 'better' is entirely subjective. I'm not suggesting I have a solution, and I know there's no such thing as a perfect solution. I was merely attempting to point out the sillyness of implying the only solution is less gun legislation and all and every additional gun legislation is wrong.

    Personally, being from Arizona and a gun owner, I like our state's gun laws. However I don't think there perfect. One idea I got from looking at the article comes from the first paragraph "Jared Loughner's behavior was so disturbing, he was forced to withdraw from community college classes last fall, told he could return only with a mental health evaluation showing he "does not present a danger to himself or others." Now I don't know who decided this man couldn't return to school for mental health reasons, if it was a medical professional or just some person working there. However if a medical professional did decide an individual needed a mental health evaluation to show he "does not present a danger to himself or others" it would be a good reason in my opinion to throw up a red flag during your pre-purchase check at the gun store.

    Course that's a pretty simple example and I'm by no means saying its what we should do, its just an idea to look into to help ensure less of this crimes occur.

    I'm trying to think about how to improve our laws to avoid crimes like these, as opposed to just throwing up my arms and saying "well I guess there's nothing we can do!"
    Does Arizona not already run a criminal background check? If he passed the check, legally he should have been allowed to buy the gun. Unless the store owner had any idea that he was going to do something criminal with the firearm, procedurally they did the correct thing by taking his money and giving him the gun, and that it not something that needs to be changed.

    What happened was a tragedy, but it was NOT a flaw in the system.
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

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    Re: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    Does Arizona not already run a criminal background check? If he passed the check, legally he should have been allowed to buy the gun. Unless the store owner had any idea that he was going to do something criminal with the firearm, procedurally they did the correct thing by taking his money and giving him the gun, and that it not something that needs to be changed.

    What happened was a tragedy, but it was NOT a flaw in the system.
    Not a flaw? You call someone purchasing gun, with the intent to use it to murder several people, not a flaw in the system?

    Yes under the current law he could purchase a weapon legally, however thats not an argument because I'm proposing looking at ways to make the law better to catch more better like this. What I'm saying is that there's nothing wrong with looking at how to change the system to ensure, AGAIN, less people with an intent to kill are able to purchase a weapon.

    What solution do you have? Does this situation and event even warrant a look at gun crimes and gun laws in the US or the state of Arizona? And again can you really defend your position that no solution to gun crime involves additional or changed gun laws?

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    Re: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

    Well if you must insist on having your guns.Obvously it to late for gun control now but i hate to think having many murderers are now in jail that use to call themselves "responsible gun owners".
    The third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. The second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. The first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

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    Re: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    What happened was a tragedy, but it was NOT a flaw in the system.
    Eh, I'm not sure I agree with this. We really probably shouldn't be selling guns to crazy people. I realize that they could probably get them illegally, but that's no reason to make it easier for them. The fact that he was denied admittance to school and wasn't allowed to join the army due to mental problems should have probably been a red flag in the system when he went through the background check.
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    If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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    Re: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    There's nothing wrong with asking why. What's objectionable is when a bunch of idiots are convinced that they KNOW why things went wrong and then try to push their particular brand of bull****, using the tragedy as fodder.
    Even more frustrating is when another bunch of idiots overzealously fights even the mere suggestion of a pragmatic solution.

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    Re: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

    It's still too early to try to springboard political agendas from this tragic event.

    Those who do, on any side show terrible judgment an a lack of human mercy.

  8. #28
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    Re: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    Color me surprised that it took less than 24 hours for someone to turn a tragic event into a political grandstand against gun ownership.

    Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales
    I was watching CNN earlier and they were talking about we need to tone down the political rhetoric. Not only were anti-2nd amendment loons using this tragedy to gain ground there was also anti-free speech loons trying to use this tragedy to gain ground.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

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    Re: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    I think it raises the reasonable question as to why his history does not show up in the proper database in order to flag him. A college booted him and said he needs to show a mental health evaluation stating he's not a danger to himself or others before he could return. Then the military rejected him as unqualified to serve. These are red flags on record, but if you don't check they obviously wont show up.
    The problem is that neither of those two things are a legal designation of crazy, nor should they be. Real time in a psychiatric ward, a court order, or something of that nature should be the sort of thing that disqualifies a person from owning a gun. Being rejected for a job should never be.

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    Re: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    I think it raises the reasonable question as to why his history does not show up in the proper database in order to flag him. A college booted him and said he needs to show a mental health evaluation stating he's not a danger to himself or others before he could return. Then the military rejected him as unqualified to serve. These are red flags on record, but if you don't check they obviously wont show up.
    The military rejected him for a failed drug test and I certainly don't see a college transcript or file being a reasonable prerequisite for gun ownership.

    Are these really things we want in a database? We seem to be losing enough privacy as it is these days.

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