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Thread: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

  1. #121
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    Re: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmaO01 View Post
    If you want the privledge of a weapon perhaps if you're nutjob yes. We already have background checks don't we? BTW I know a couple of people that carry permits and they are one oar shy of a boat. No criminal record though. I wouldn't want them around me with a gun.
    Your opinions do not trump fact: permit holders tend to be more law-abiding than the general population and very rarely cause any trouble.

    Concealed carry in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    North Carolina reports only 0.2% of their 263,102 holders had their license revoked in the 10 years since they have adopted the law.[61]

    Permit holders are a remarkably law-abiding subclass of the population. Florida, which has issued over 1,408,907 permits in twenty one years, has revoked only 166 for a "crime after licensure involving a firearm," and fewer than 4,500 permits for any reason.[62]
    Indeed, few lawfully-owned guns are ever used in a crime:

    Firearms as Used in Crime
    Annual Criminal Abuse of Firearms Nationally: Less than 0.2% of all firearms, and less than 0.4% of all handguns. More than 99.8% of all guns, and 99.6% of all handguns are NOT used in criminal activity in any given year.(BATF, FBI)

    Nor are gun accidents as much of an issue as some would try to claim:

    Firearms Accidents and Firearms Safety Education
    Fatal Firearms Accidents for All Ages Annually: 1,134 nationwide in 1996. Rate of 0.4 per 100T population. Represents a roughly 90% decrease from record high in 1904. Accident rate is down by 65% since 1930, while U.S. population has doubled and number of privately-owned firearms has quadrupled. Compare to other types of fatal accidents, for all ages: Motor Vehicles 16.7/100T, Falls 4.8/100T, Poisoning 4.0/100T, Drowning 1.7/100T, Fires 1.6/100T, Choking 1.1/100T.(National Safety Council, National Center for Health Statistics, BATF, US Census)
    Your personal opinions notwithstanding, the numbers do not back you up.

    Contrariwise, I've known literally hundreds of permit-holders, because I teach firearm classes sometimes. The vast majority were sensible, reasonable people who would be perfectly welcome to enter my home armed.
    Last edited by Goshin; 01-10-11 at 11:33 AM.

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    Re: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    We both know that your continued harping on this particular point is asinine. In order for there to truly be a double standard, I would have to have applied something similar to someone else. Please prove I did so, because we both know that I havenít called for your personal qualifications on anything. Bottom line, you insisted that I answer a question that you and I both know is not empirically verifiable. You intentionally did so knowing that whatever answer I might give you could simply dismiss by saying ďI donít believe you.Ē I gave you my personal evidence, and you immediately dismissed it, as I assumed you would.This is poor debate at itís core, and this is why I donít give a ratís tookus if you believe me or not. Let's just drop this particular point, because it's only making you look ridiculous.



    No, YOUíRE oversimplifying the issue. You claim that there are much better ways to control guns, you just have no idea what they are and the ONLY example youíve given involves a complete change of system of government. Furthermore, Somalia and Mexico are both atrocious examples that prove my point even further. You think that those two countries are examples of what happens without gun control? : The only people that have the easy access to guns in Somalia and Mexico are the lawless individuals, and they use their force monopoly to inflict terror upon the rest of the population, who are not similarly armed. Why do you think cartel members are willing to shoot up birthday parties without fear of reprisal or Somali pirates lock down entire coastal villages? Your premise is absolutely ridiculous and your argument is foundering more rapidly by the second.



    As I showed you in the other thread, Germany may have enacted gun control laws, but they are clearly unable to enforce them. They know where 20% of the guns in their country are, with over 15 million firearms unaccounted for. How is that control working out for them again?



    Again, youíre not advocating any policy changes because you have no idea how to fix the problem through legislation here in this country. (There ISN'T a way to legislate personal safety from crime.) You have no alternatives, and as youíve personally stated you are simply resistant to the idea that my premise might be correct and that the most effective guarantee to personal safety is a properly armed and educated populace. Making guns harder to legally obtain is a direct threat to the safety of those who will actually go through the legal process to get them. It has no, I repeat, NO impact on the people who care nothing for the law, and they are the ones you should be worried about.




    I donít care where youíre from and I donít care that you say you own a gun. Thatís like the person who uses the ďWell, I have a black friendĒ argument in an attempt to prove that they are not a racist. Neither of your statements are relevant to the discussion at hand. You JUST ADMITTED the point Iíve been trying to get through to you:

    Thank you.

    One final point, Iím not anti-gun control, Iím anti-ineffective gun control. If you could prove to me that you have a way to keep criminals from getting their hands on weapons or harming the populace, if you could guarantee me the same safety without a firearm that I currently have with one, I would turn in my guns in a heartbeat and sleep safely and peacefully with the decision. The problem is that we live in an imperfect world and you can never guarantee my safety. I am responsible for protecting me and my own. THAT is why it should not be harder for people to legally obtain firearms.
    Ok lets drop all the above and focus on the last two. I don't disagree with you. Thats what I meant when I said we don't disagree on policy, I just think its silly to write off any attempt to improve the law. Now again I don't know the system well enough or studied it well enough to present something that I'm absolutely confident is correct. Of course I'm betting you're going to take that as evidence that you understand this issue more than me, not that you haven't already decided that, however my personal standard for justifying that kind of confidence in a solution is much higher than yours I'm sure.

    However I do have ideas and I do think that the murder of 9 people justifies a little looking into the system to see whats wrong, even if you don't know exactly what you are looking for. For example the individual in question had a criminal record which included what I believe were at least a few felony drug violations, that should be something which turns up in that check. Clearly something was wrong with the system where this man was able to purchase a weapon legally. When the law isn't being enforced its a problem.

    There's also this idea
    Feds want reporting for high-powered rifle sales - Yahoo! News

    The nuts and bolts is that any sale of 2 or more high powered rifles along border states will be reported to the ATF, only so they may have a second look at the sale to ensure its not a purchase by drug smuggling cartels. If the ATF sees thats its all kosher, than its no problem and the purchaser isn't bothered at all. So the purchaser isn't bothered at all, is still allowed to buy the guns on the spot, but the ATF takes a closer look because so many American weapons are turning up in Mexico.

    Is that a good idea?

  3. #123
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    Re: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    However I do have ideas and I do think that the murder of 9 people justifies a little looking into the system to see whats wrong, even if you don't know exactly what you are looking for. For example the individual in question had a criminal record which included what I believe were at least a few felony drug violations, that should be something which turns up in that check. Clearly something was wrong with the system where this man was able to purchase a weapon legally. When the law isn't being enforced its a problem.
    I believe you're incorrect about him having a felony record. Do you have any sources confirming this? Current gun laws already forbid felons from purchasing guns, so if this is the case, than clearly even the fact that it was against the law did not stop him from getting a weapon. How would more legislation improve this? If he truly had no recorded criminal history, there was no reason for the shop not to sell him the gun. They could not have known what his intentions were.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    There's also this idea
    Feds want reporting for high-powered rifle sales - Yahoo! News

    The nuts and bolts is that any sale of 2 or more high powered rifles along border states will be reported to the ATF, only so they may have a second look at the sale to ensure its not a purchase by drug smuggling cartels. If the ATF sees thats its all kosher, than its no problem and the purchaser isn't bothered at all. So the purchaser isn't bothered at all, is still allowed to buy the guns on the spot, but the ATF takes a closer look because so many American weapons are turning up in Mexico.

    Is that a good idea?
    It's a worthless idea. Let me quickly describe why: A bad guy wishes to buy five rifles in a week. He simply has five associates with clean backgrounds each buy a gun and give it to him. This is what's known as a straw sale. It looks on the up-and-up on paper. Now, a father wishes to legally buy two hunting rifles so he and his son can go out hunting this weekend. Guess who will end up in the ATF database? Hint: it's not the bad guy. A straw buy is literally impossible to prevent. How can the ATF immediately determine a buyer's intent without compiling an extensive database of who's buying what? Forgive me, but the ATF has no more business knowing how many guns I have in my house than they do knowing how many bottles of alcohol or packs of cigarettes I currently own.
    Furthermore, guns readily available on the black market for the right price mean that U.S. gun shops often don't even compete with what cartels are looking to buy.
    Simply put, the criminal has far more options available to them than the law abiding citizen when it comes to obtaining arms. We can't stop the criminal from getting his gun, so the best we can do is not make it harder for the law abiding citizen buy what he needs to protect himself.
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

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    Re: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    I believe you're incorrect about him having a felony record. Do you have any sources confirming this? Current gun laws already forbid felons from purchasing guns, so if this is the case, than clearly even the fact that it was against the law did not stop him from getting a weapon. How would more legislation improve this? If he truly had no recorded criminal history, there was no reason for the shop not to sell him the gun. They could not have known what his intentions were.
    I didn't say more legislation was the answer, I simply said there was something wrong with the system specifically its not working as designed. My idea in this situation would be to exaimine the enforcement of the law, as it clearly did not live up to expectations in this case. I don't know specifically what I'm looking for but there's a place to start. I mean if a felon can purchase a weapon from a gun store, which is supposed to be illegal than clearly something needs to be done to ensure the law is actually enforced?


    It's a worthless idea. Let me quickly describe why: A bad guy wishes to buy five rifles in a week. He simply has five associates with clean backgrounds each buy a gun and give it to him. This is what's known as a straw sale. It looks on the up-and-up on paper. Now, a father wishes to legally buy two hunting rifles so he and his son can go out hunting this weekend. Guess who will end up in the ATF database? Hint: it's not the bad guy. A straw buy is literally impossible to prevent. How can the ATF immediately determine a buyer's intent without compiling an extensive database of who's buying what? Forgive me, but the ATF has no more business knowing how many guns I have in my house than they do knowing how many bottles of alcohol or packs of cigarettes I currently own.
    Furthermore, guns readily available on the black market for the right price mean that U.S. gun shops often don't even compete with what cartels are looking to buy.
    Simply put, the criminal has far more options available to them than the law abiding citizen when it comes to obtaining arms. We can't stop the criminal from getting his gun, so the best we can do is not make it harder for the law abiding citizen buy what he needs to protect himself.
    I agree, there's certainly a easy way around this law by using multiple persons and a law which isn't effective at its stated goal probably shouldn't exist. I brought this up not because I agree with it, but because I'm open to reading and learning about new ideas which is how I can justify my opposition or support of them. You on other hand, in the belief you know all you need to know already, won't learn anything new or look at new ideas and systems and may miss something which is a better way of doing things than.

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    Re: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    Ahhh, so you think its irrelevant to the discussion of the Senator that was shot with a rifle ???

    Her title and what she was shot with is irrelevant, right ??

    Proper use of the terms is ALWAYS important.
    I haven't heard that since basic training.

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    Re: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    I didn't say more legislation was the answer, I simply said there was something wrong with the system specifically its not working as designed. My idea in this situation would be to exaimine the enforcement of the law, as it clearly did not live up to expectations in this case. I don't know specifically what I'm looking for but there's a place to start. I mean if a felon can purchase a weapon from a gun store, which is supposed to be illegal than clearly something needs to be done to ensure the law is actually enforced?
    The system was enforced and worked exactly like it was designed. The guy did NOT have a criminal record and did NOT have any mental issues on his record.

    Law enforcement can't use a crystal ball or read tea leaves to determine what someone might do in the future.

    • "The America Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." -- Alexis de Tocqueville





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    Re: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

    Your opinions do not trump fact: permit holders tend to be more law-abiding than the general population and very rarely cause any trouble.
    A good example would be the guy on the scene with a gun who chose to tackle the shooter rather than killing him.

    I have carried a pistol for about forth years and was one of the first to get a license when Texas changed the law. I have been stopped by cops a few times and in most cases the cop was more comfortable with me after they knew that I had a pistol on me. The reason is that they know that if they are looking at my carry license they are looking at a man who has no criminal record and follows the rule of law.

    If he truly had no recorded criminal history, there was no reason for the shop not to sell him the gun.
    I believe that the liberal horde is assuming that this guy bought the weapon in question but I have not seen evidence of that. I have six hand guns and I only bought one of them after the checking requirements started. I have four that my dad gave me before he died and I have had a 9mm auto loader for many years.

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    Re: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    The system was enforced and worked exactly like it was designed. The guy did NOT have a criminal record and did NOT have any mental issues on his record.

    Law enforcement can't use a crystal ball or read tea leaves to determine what someone might do in the future.
    Precisely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    I didn't say more legislation was the answer, I simply said there was something wrong with the system specifically its not working as designed. My idea in this situation would be to exaimine the enforcement of the law, as it clearly did not live up to expectations in this case. I don't know specifically what I'm looking for but there's a place to start. I mean if a felon can purchase a weapon from a gun store, which is supposed to be illegal than clearly something needs to be done to ensure the law is actually enforced?
    Here’s the problem, as several people have explained to you: There was NO flaw in the system. The guy apparently didn’t have a record, so there was no reason to refuse the sale of a gun to him. No one dropped the ball, per se, because no one had any way of knowing what this guy’s intentions were. It was certainly a tragedy, but perhaps the only way it could have been prevented was if those closest to the shooter, his friends and family came forward with concerns for his mental health or intentions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    I agree, there's certainly a easy way around this law by using multiple persons and a law which isn't effective at its stated goal probably shouldn't exist. I brought this up not because I agree with it, but because I'm open to reading and learning about new ideas which is how I can justify my opposition or support of them. You on other hand, in the belief you know all you need to know already, won't learn anything new or look at new ideas and systems and may miss something which is a better way of doing things than.
    You’re not doing yourself any favors by attempting to attribute statements to me that I’ve neither directly said nor even implied. I never claimed to know everything about this subject but I DO spend a fair bit of time researching the issues and do not hesitate to point out problems where I see them. The fact is that the current ideas for gun legislation fall in to two categories. They’re either laughably ineffective, like the idea you mentioned, or they’re a gross suppression of rights, such as the CA “assault weapons” ban. Regardless, the impact they have on a criminal attempting to get a weapon is minimal, at best, while the law-abiding citizen is the one that is heavily affected. This is why I'm immediately skeptical of any talk about increasing restrictions on guns. As I've said before, crime can not be legislated out of existence and the government cannot ensure your safety.
    Last edited by theangryamerican; 01-11-11 at 11:37 AM.
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  9. #129
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    Re: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    No in this case state law controls the type of sale this man completed, specifically the state laws which govern the sale of semi-automatic pistols. They differ state-by-state on many levels and what I was saying is that AngryAmerican does have anywhere near the knowledge required on the subject of Arizona gun laws to make a statement such as "There is no way we can improve their laws."

    I'm not talking about holes in the Federal law which might have allowed this guy to slip through, but I'm talking about Arizona law. And so is he for a matter of fact since the last thing he posted on the subject was about Arizona law not federal law.
    what would you propose

    most states do not have additional requirements or restrictions over the federal mandates



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    Re: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    Color me surprised that it took less than 24 hours for someone to turn a tragic event into a political grandstand against gun ownership.

    Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales
    it's a legitimate question.

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


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