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Thread: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

  1. #111
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    Re: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by dontworrybehappy View Post
    What kind of gun did he use? Does anyone know?


    glock 19 with a 33 round magazine.
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    Re: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmaO01 View Post
    With a 30 round clip.



    This is a "clip"




    This is a "magazine"...






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  3. #113
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    Re: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

    It is becoming apparent that the shooter was not exactly a "right wing gun nut"...

    A classmate of the man accused of shooting Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords this morning describes him as "left wing" and a "pot head" in a series of posts on Twitter this afternoon.

    ....
    We've confirmed that Parker and Loughner went to school together at Mountain View High School in Tucson and that both attended Pima Community College, so her claims of knowing Loughner seem to be legit.

    ...

    She describes him as "quite liberal" and as a "political radical."
    Jared Loughner, Alleged Shooter in Gabrielle Giffords Attack, Described by Classmate as "Left-Wing Pothead" - Phoenix News - Valley Fever


    Not to mention, the Congresswoman was pro-2nd Amendment.

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  4. #114
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    Re: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    Its a reference to the fact that you are asking me to simply take your creditably on Arizona gun law simply because you say they are present. And I'm saying I'm assuming you don't just take everyone at their word when they say they have a certain degree of familiarity with a subject, therefore you're apply a different standard to yourself as you do others.
    We both know that your continued harping on this particular point is asinine. In order for there to truly be a double standard, I would have to have applied something similar to someone else. Please prove I did so, because we both know that I havenít called for your personal qualifications on anything. Bottom line, you insisted that I answer a question that you and I both know is not empirically verifiable. You intentionally did so knowing that whatever answer I might give you could simply dismiss by saying ďI donít believe you.Ē I gave you my personal evidence, and you immediately dismissed it, as I assumed you would.This is poor debate at itís core, and this is why I donít give a ratís tookus if you believe me or not. Let's just drop this particular point, because it's only making you look ridiculous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    You're over simplifying the issue again, we both know guns can work either way for example look at Somalia or Mexico. We also know you are specifically talking about legal guns, not just guns in general. If it were just guns that deterred crime in general, it wouldn't matter if they were acquired legally or illegally. However a central pillar of your argument is that criminals will get guns one way or another, and its the availability of guns to the responsible population that really matters. Its these qualifiers and explanations of your positions you constantly leave out.
    No, YOUíRE oversimplifying the issue. You claim that there are much better ways to control guns, you just have no idea what they are and the ONLY example youíve given involves a complete change of system of government. Furthermore, Somalia and Mexico are both atrocious examples that prove my point even further. You think that those two countries are examples of what happens without gun control? : The only people that have the easy access to guns in Somalia and Mexico are the lawless individuals, and they use their force monopoly to inflict terror upon the rest of the population, who are not similarly armed. Why do you think cartel members are willing to shoot up birthday parties without fear of reprisal or Somali pirates lock down entire coastal villages? Your premise is absolutely ridiculous and your argument is foundering more rapidly by the second.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    I was simply trying to show there were other solutions to gun crime, something you refused to admit because of politics. If I'm simply trying to show there is not only one of something, I only need to demonstrate and show there's just one other. A second example wasn't necessary but Germany still works perfect as a case where stricter gun laws and stricter control has led to less gun crime. Germany Reevaluates Gun Laws After School Shooting | Germany | Deutsche Welle | 23.11.2006
    As I showed you in the other thread, Germany may have enacted gun control laws, but they are clearly unable to enforce them. They know where 20% of the guns in their country are, with over 15 million firearms unaccounted for. How is that control working out for them again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    Also, for the I don't know how many-ith time, I'm not advocating any form of policy and I'm certainly not saying we should adopt a Chinese style system. I am, again explaining this after I dunno many how times, simply trying to show its foolish to simply state no additional or changed gun law will work, especially considering you're clear lack of demonstrated knowledge on Arizona gun law.
    Again, youíre not advocating any policy changes because you have no idea how to fix the problem through legislation here in this country. (There ISN'T a way to legislate personal safety from crime.) You have no alternatives, and as youíve personally stated you are simply resistant to the idea that my premise might be correct and that the most effective guarantee to personal safety is a properly armed and educated populace. Making guns harder to legally obtain is a direct threat to the safety of those who will actually go through the legal process to get them. It has no, I repeat, NO impact on the people who care nothing for the law, and they are the ones you should be worried about.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    How many times do I have to say I'm not pushing policy? Listen to me carefully, I'm from Arizona, I own a weapon, and I love my state's gun laws. We suffer low crime in part due to them and much of our crime comes from other sources such as south of the border, but its deterred in places like Phoenix due to people owning weapons. I don't disagree with any of that, I just think its silly to suggest that ANY change and ANY additional gun laws will hurt people.
    I donít care where youíre from and I donít care that you say you own a gun. Thatís like the person who uses the ďWell, I have a black friendĒ argument in an attempt to prove that they are not a racist. Neither of your statements are relevant to the discussion at hand. You JUST ADMITTED the point Iíve been trying to get through to you:
    and I love my state's gun laws. We suffer low crime in part due to them and much of our crime comes from other sources such as south of the border
    Thank you.

    One final point, Iím not anti-gun control, Iím anti-ineffective gun control. If you could prove to me that you have a way to keep criminals from getting their hands on weapons or harming the populace, if you could guarantee me the same safety without a firearm that I currently have with one, I would turn in my guns in a heartbeat and sleep safely and peacefully with the decision. The problem is that we live in an imperfect world and you can never guarantee my safety. I am responsible for protecting me and my own. THAT is why it should not be harder for people to legally obtain firearms.
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

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    Re: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    Color me surprised that it took less than 24 hours for someone to turn a tragic event into a political grandstand against gun ownership.

    Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales
    It's not about gun ownership? That's the problem with the idiotic NRA all-or-nothing argument!

    It's about tracking how this jackass got his guns and his bullets and blocking that. No one gives a turd about your legally purchased guns. Waste your money shooting at cans and unarmed deer. We want to stop the flood of guns into the grey/black market.

    If the idiots at the NRA would get that and join with the rest of us with some pragmatic solutions to prevent guns getting to those who would misuse them, then we could get somewhere?

    But NO-OOOOOOO! They're a bunch of paranoid assholes who won't budge an inch off their backwards all-or-nothing stance. The blood of that 9-year-old girl is on their hands. And anyone who refuses to even have the conversation.

  6. #116
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    Re: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    It's not about gun ownership? That's the problem with the idiotic NRA all-or-nothing argument!

    It's about tracking how this jackass got his guns and his bullets and blocking that. No one gives a turd about your legally purchased guns. Waste your money shooting at cans and unarmed deer. We want to stop the flood of guns into the grey/black market.

    If the idiots at the NRA would get that and join with the rest of us with some pragmatic solutions to prevent guns getting to those who would misuse them, then we could get somewhere?

    But NO-OOOOOOO! They're a bunch of paranoid assholes who won't budge an inch off their backwards all-or-nothing stance. The blood of that 9-year-old girl is on their hands. And anyone who refuses to even have the conversation.


    utter nonsense. This guy would have found another way to do his damage, gun or no gun. you want to restrict me, because of the action of an individual. we simply value freedom more than some folk.


    I agree the NRA are a bunch of idiots. I turned in my lifetime membership. they are too soft and too willing to compromise on the 2nd.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

  7. #117
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    Re: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    It's not about gun ownership? That's the problem with the idiotic NRA all-or-nothing argument!

    It's about tracking how this jackass got his guns and his bullets and blocking that. No one gives a turd about your legally purchased guns. Waste your money shooting at cans and unarmed deer. We want to stop the flood of guns into the grey/black market.

    If the idiots at the NRA would get that and join with the rest of us with some pragmatic solutions to prevent guns getting to those who would misuse them, then we could get somewhere?

    But NO-OOOOOOO! They're a bunch of paranoid assholes who won't budge an inch off their backwards all-or-nothing stance. The blood of that 9-year-old girl is on their hands. And anyone who refuses to even have the conversation.
    Alright, put up or shut up. Let's hear your "solutions" and I'll tell you why they won't work.

    *edit* Btw, I'm not nor have I ever been NRA.
    Last edited by theangryamerican; 01-10-11 at 11:15 AM.
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

  8. #118
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    Re: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    It's not about gun ownership? That's the problem with the idiotic NRA all-or-nothing argument!

    It's about tracking how this jackass got his guns and his bullets and blocking that. No one gives a turd about your legally purchased guns. Waste your money shooting at cans and unarmed deer. We want to stop the flood of guns into the grey/black market.

    If the idiots at the NRA would get that and join with the rest of us with some pragmatic solutions to prevent guns getting to those who would misuse them, then we could get somewhere?

    But NO-OOOOOOO! They're a bunch of paranoid assholes who won't budge an inch off their backwards all-or-nothing stance. The blood of that 9-year-old girl is on their hands. And anyone who refuses to even have the conversation.
    The blood of the 9 yo is on the hands of the NRA???? That's the most outrageous thing I've heard in awhile and even for you, is pretty absurd.

    The man bought the gun legally. He was subjected to the legally required background check and passed. If you want to blame someone, start with the ACLU that fought against including mental disorders in the database. In this case though, it wouldn't have mattered because he hadn't been treated for mental illness, at least from what we know now.

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  9. #119
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    Re: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    The blood of the 9 yo is on the hands of the NRA???? That's the most outrageous thing I've heard in awhile and even for you, is pretty absurd.
    Consider the source of the absurdity Gill. The fact is, the NRA has been against the mentally ill getting guns.

    The NRA's view from 2007:
    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne LaPierre
    Well, here's the deal. There's a lot of misinformation floating around and let me give you the exact story on it. NRA's been trying to get improvements made in this system for years to make this fair for law-abiding gun owners because 99.9% of the people that go through that system are the good guys. On the other hand if somebody's adjudicated by a court of law to be mentally defective, suicidal, danger to themselves, danger to others, NRA has said for 15 years that court adjudication ought to be part of the file to screen out people that are mentally defective, adjudicated by a court.
    Interview with Wayne LaPierre, Executive Vice President of the NRA

    Hazlnut is just ripping off HuffPo's rant about the NRA and parroting it.
    Josh Horwitz: Tucson Shooting Shows True Face of NRA's "Second Amendment Remedies"
    ďI think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whatís being proposed here, heíd agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute.Ē - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  10. #120
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    Re: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Consider the source of the absurdity Gill. The fact is, the NRA has been against the mentally ill getting guns.

    The NRA's view from 2007:


    Interview with Wayne LaPierre, Executive Vice President of the NRA

    Hazlnut is just ripping off HuffPo's rant about the NRA and parroting it.
    Josh Horwitz: Tucson Shooting Shows True Face of NRA's "Second Amendment Remedies"



    without giving credit? isn't that plagerism?
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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