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Thread: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

  1. #91
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    Re: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    I'm guessing you don't just talk people at their word for everything do you? But no apply a different standard for yourself, because you're special, ok bud.
    I have no idea what the hell this argument is in reference to, but... uh... ok, whatever you say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    And no you're right I don't claim to have a solution, even though I clearly see a problem. Its just like how I can say a truck is broken when I don't exactly whats wrong with it or how to fix it. What really bugs me is that you are so keen to not accept reality when it doesn't fit into your politics. Going all the way back again you've said the only solution to the problem of gun crime is to have gun laws. However its clearly been shown through the world that there are other ways to reduce gun crime without have looser gun laws, but you can't acknowledge it as a solution. You're stuck on your opinion as being right.
    "I don't know what the answer is, but I know you're not right." That's what I'm hearing here. Guns are a proven crime deterrent. This is not an opinion. This is not up for debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    Going back to the example of China, they can pull off completely outlawing civilian ownership of weapons and still have a society nearly free of gun crimes. Why? Well part of the reason is the government keeps such tight control over its people, which is the reason I don't support that solution. However if we go by your words again "The only solution is less gun laws to reduce gun crime" than you're clearly wrong. A more intelligent argument would be there are other solutions however I don't think there are as good as mine because they limit the freedom of the people among other negative consequences.
    "So... communism is a great model for what we should do in the United States? We should give up the majority of our freedoms for the illusion of safety. Got it. Btw, I notice you don't list Germany as an example any more, after I called you on their failed attempt at gun control last time you tried that example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    Thats whats really been bugging me this whole time, not your politics because on this issue they are very close to mine, but the way you go about looking at the world as if you're opinion is fact.
    Cry me a river. Our views are clearly nothing alike. If you don't wish to take personal responsibility for your safety, that's fine, but don't force your misguided moral code on me and my family.
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

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    Re: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

    I am simply amazed.

    Is ANYONE really stupid enough to belive that someone such as the individual in question would simply have abandoned his plans if he couldnt get a firearm? Has there been ANYTHING written that implies a magazine capacity ban would prevent this particular unstable individual from executing his rampage?

    This is pathetic and typical. Tragedy occurs...seize it and use it to advance your own political agenda.

    Should we deny a drivers license based on the same grounds? Should there be a national data base to prevent people with mental illness from purchasing sharp objects? Spray paint? Should we allow landlords access to that same database to be more selctive with who the rent to? EMployers to ensure they dont hire this type of individual and put their own employees at risk? Where does it stop? Or do you want those changes in law to ONLY apply to your particular political bent?

    The bodies arent even cold yet. Hell...they hadnt stopped bleeding before people started using it for political attacks...maybe you should give it a few days before you whore out the dead for your causes.

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    Re: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    I have no idea what the hell this argument is in reference to, but... uh... ok, whatever you say.
    Its a reference to the fact that you are asking me to simply take your creditably on Arizona gun law simply because you say they are present. And I'm saying I'm assuming you don't just take everyone at their word when they say they have a certain degree of familiarity with a subject, therefore you're apply a different standard to yourself as you do others.

    "I don't know what the answer is, but I know you're not right." That's what I'm hearing here. Guns are a proven crime deterrent. This is not an opinion. This is not up for debate.
    You're over simplifying the issue again, we both know guns can work either way for example look at Somalia or Mexico. We also know you are specifically talking about legal guns, not just guns in general. If it were just guns that deterred crime in general, it wouldn't matter if they were acquired legally or illegally. However a central pillar of your argument is that criminals will get guns one way or another, and its the availability of guns to the responsible population that really matters. Its these qualifiers and explanations of your positions you constantly leave out.


    "So... communism is a great model for what we should do in the United States? We should give up the majority of our freedoms for the illusion of safety. Got it. Btw, I notice you don't list Germany as an example any more, after I called you on their failed attempt at gun control last time you tried that example.
    I was simply trying to show there were other solutions to gun crime, something you refused to admit because of politics. If I'm simply trying to show there is not only one of something, I only need to demonstrate and show there's just one other. A second example wasn't necessary but Germany still works perfect as a case where stricter gun laws and stricter control has led to less gun crime. Germany Reevaluates Gun Laws After School Shooting | Germany | Deutsche Welle | 23.11.2006

    Also, for the I don't know how many-ith time, I'm not advocating any form of policy and I'm certainly not saying we should adopt a Chinese style system. I am, again explaining this after I dunno many how times, simply trying to show its foolish to simply state no additional or changed gun law will work, especially considering you're clear lack of demonstrated knowledge on Arizona gun law.


    Cry me a river. Our views are clearly nothing alike. If you don't wish to take personal responsibility for your safety, that's fine, but don't force your misguided moral code on me and my family.
    How many times do I have to say I'm not pushing policy? Listen to me carefully, I'm from Arizona, I own a weapon, and I love my state's gun laws. We suffer low crime in part due to them and much of our crime comes from other sources such as south of the border, but its deterred in places like Phoenix due to people owning weapons. I don't disagree with any of that, I just think its silly to suggest that ANY change and ANY additional gun laws will hurt people.

  4. #94
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    Re: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

    The point is the improbability that any gun laws of any kind would have stopped this individual from doing what he did.

    If he were unable to buy a gun legally from a licensed dealer, he could have bebopped down to his local drug dealer and got hooked up with a gun within 24 hours. Not a problem.

    Most mass-shootings have taken place in areas where it was already a crime to be in possession of a gun. Those "gun free zones" have never stopped a single shooter.

    It just isn't likely that there's any legislative solution that would have prevented this crime, short of turning our society into a draconian police-state.

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    Re: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    The point is the improbability that any gun laws of any kind would have stopped this individual from doing what he did.

    If he were unable to buy a gun legally from a licensed dealer, he could have bebopped down to his local drug dealer and got hooked up with a gun within 24 hours. Not a problem.

    Most mass-shootings have taken place in areas where it was already a crime to be in possession of a gun. Those "gun free zones" have never stopped a single shooter.

    It just isn't likely that there's any legislative solution that would have prevented this crime, short of turning our society into a draconian police-state.
    I'm going to ask you the same thing I've been asking the other guy almost this entire topic. What knowledge of gun laws, both Arizona state and now Federal, do you have which allows you to justify an opinion such as there is no way to improve the law, or that its very improbable? Are you that confident there's no loophole which may be closed? Or no additional item added to the check, like say history of mental illiness and criminal activity which may be important to know when selling a firearm? Or if those things are already on the list, which most mental illinesses and criminal activity is, could there not have been a mistake or an error somewhere down the line that allowed this man to purchase this weapon? Are you so confident nothing can be done that no investigation or look over of state gun laws may be worthwhile, even if not to change or add onto them but to ensure they are enforced more effectively?

    And you're right an individual can acquire a gun illegal through different means, its not impossible by no means. That doesn't mean we shouldn't have laws which govern guns. Just like how people will always speed doesn't mean we just shouldnt bother with speed limits. The capacity and ability of people to commit a crime, for example an illegal sale or purchase of a firearm, doesn't mean there should be no or less laws governing the legal sale of firearms.

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    Re: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    that is a magazine, not a clip and it was most likely 33 rounds=G 18 magazine

    so what-I can reload a glock in under a second and a half
    or carry two
    So what back at you. What difference does it make what it's called? 33 bullets is a lot freaking fire power especially when a coward goes ballistic (no pun intended) against defenseless civilians.

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    Re: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    I don't think it was a matter of accurracy, just a tightly packed group. People couldn't get away in time, from the sound of it.
    But, but, in the movies and TV series the bad guys fire machine guns at the protagonist and he doesn't even get hit! Sadly I guess there's Hollywood and there's real life.

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    Re: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    I'm going to ask you the same thing I've been asking the other guy almost this entire topic. What knowledge of gun laws, both Arizona state and now Federal, do you have which allows you to justify an opinion such as there is no way to improve the law, or that its very improbable? Are you that confident there's no loophole which may be closed? Or no additional item added to the check, like say history of mental illiness and criminal activity which may be important to know when selling a firearm? Or if those things are already on the list, which most mental illinesses and criminal activity is, could there not have been a mistake or an error somewhere down the line that allowed this man to purchase this weapon? Are you so confident nothing can be done that no investigation or look over of state gun laws may be worthwhile, even if not to change or add onto them but to ensure they are enforced more effectively?

    And you're right an individual can acquire a gun illegal through different means, its not impossible by no means. That doesn't mean we shouldn't have laws which govern guns. Just like how people will always speed doesn't mean we just shouldnt bother with speed limits. The capacity and ability of people to commit a crime, for example an illegal sale or purchase of a firearm, doesn't mean there should be no or less laws governing the legal sale of firearms.
    You should ask that question of the ACLU. They are the ones that have fought laws throughout the country to prevent evidence of mental health problems from being in the public record. If there is no record of mental health problems in the federal database, then the purchase of a gun cannot be stopped.

    Want to change the law? Contact the ACLU and tell them to stop their campaign that puts more importance on the privacy rights of mentally incompetent people than the safety of other citizens.

    Personally, I'm ambivalent on the subject. I tend to think that mentally incompetent people like this character shouldn't be allowed to own a gun, but I also have a problem agreeing with the ACLU on anything.
    Last edited by Gill; 01-10-11 at 09:48 AM.

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    Re: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    so people's medical records should be divulged without court action
    If you want the privledge of a weapon perhaps if you're nutjob yes. We already have background checks don't we? BTW I know a couple of people that carry permits and they are one oar shy of a boat. No criminal record though. I wouldn't want them around me with a gun.
    Last edited by EnigmaO01; 01-10-11 at 09:59 AM.

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    Re: Arizona Suspect's Erratic Behavior Raises Questions About Gun Sales

    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmaO01 View Post
    So what back at you. What difference does it make what it's called? 33 bullets is a lot freaking fire power especially when a coward goes ballistic (no pun intended) against defenseless civilians.
    Do you refer to a computer as a television ??? If not, why do you insist on calling an ammo magazine something its not?

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