Illinois Lawmakers Propose 75% Income Tax Hike

Yes, that is the theoretical argument. I am not denying that there are benefits to having good corporate citizens in the community. I want them there. We need them there. I want their jobs and their paychecks and their participation in the community which can be very beneficial. Yes, there is a cost/benefit relationship to this.

Now suppose for a moment that we have a national law which prohibits any level of government from creating a situation which gives an unfair economic or operating advantage to one company over others or gives them breaks or benefits that create an uneven playing field. No local tax breaks. No incentives to move there. No tax abatements. No monetary payments. Nothing from government that creates an unfair advantage or an uneven playing field for other companies.

What would be the effect of that? Companies would locate where they think they can get good workers, where there are transportation and infrastructure advantages for them, where they feel they can do business and make money. All fifty states and every community within those 50 states would be on the same even playing field.

haymarket said:

Yes, that is the theoretical argument. I am not denying that there are benefits to having good corporate citizens in the community. I want them there. We need them there. I want their jobs and their paychecks and their participation in the community which can be very beneficial. Yes, there is a cost/benefit relationship to this.

Now suppose for a moment that we have a national law which prohibits any level of government from creating a situation which gives an unfair economic or operating advantage to one company over others or gives them breaks or benefits that create an uneven playing field. No local tax breaks. No incentives to move there. No tax abatements. No monetary payments. Nothing from government that creates an unfair advantage or an uneven playing field for other companies.

What would be the effect of that? Companies would locate where they think they can get good workers, where there are transportation and infrastructure advantages for them, where they feel they can do business and make money. All fifty states and every community within those 50 states would be on the same even playing field.

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Kill the unions off and you got a deal. Hell..,.we might even bring back high paying industrial jobs to America.

haymarket said:

What would be the effect of that? Companies would locate where they think they can get good workers, where there are transportation and infrastructure advantages for them, where they feel they can do business and make money. All fifty states and every community within those 50 states would be on the same even playing field.

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Why on earth do you think all fifty states and every community within those 50 states would be on the same even playing field? Every state and every community doesn't have the same transportation and infrastructures. Every community doesn't have the same labor pool. Or maybe you want them to build 'em...and be forced to pay Chicago wages in Podunk, Missouri. Yikes.

You are a socialist. I just realized it:

Any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods.

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MaggieD said:

Why on earth do you think all fifty states and every community within those 50 states would be on the same even playing field? Every state and every community doesn't have the same transportation and infrastructures. Every community doesn't have the same labor pool. Or maybe you want them to build 'em...and be forced to pay Chicago wages in Podunk, Missouri. Yikes.

You are a socialist. I just realized it:

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Nope. I just view us as one nation, under law, indivisible with liberty and justice for all.

Do you think that is too radical?

There are things we can change and there are things we cannot change. I favor having government deal with the first and not so much the second.

haymarket said:

Yes, there is a cost/benefit relationship to this.

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Obama Calls Tax Cuts the 'Right Thing to Do'

Illinois Lawmakers Approve 66% Tax Hike « CBS Chicago

Now suppose for a moment that we have a national law

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i'm too old to play let's pretend

maybe some of your other friends might play with you

have fun

Do you think that is too radical?

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doing away with FEDERALISM?

in AMERICA?

LOL!

who cares if its RADICAL, it's just too DUMB to dignify

take care

haymarket said:

Nope. I just view us as one nation, under law, indivisible with liberty and justice for all.

Do you think that is too radical?

There are things we can change and there are things we cannot change. I favor having government deal with the first and not so much the second.

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Yes, you do favor government dealing with the first. That's the whole problem. Me, on the other hand? I believe in the free market.

MaggieD said:

Yes, you do favor government dealing with the first. That's the whole problem. Me, on the other hand? I believe in the free market.

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This coming from a guy who claimed he was a teacher. Can you imagine a teacher distorting the vision of our Founders and their goals for this country of a small central govt. with the power resting in the state and local communities? The Liberal "one size" fits all mantra has led to the social engineering that has occurred in this country and creation of the nanny state that keeps liberals employed. Most people in this country are looking for compassionate results, not just spending in the name of compassion that liberals promote. That feel good spending has led to the current 14.3 trillion dollar debt we have as a nation but since that doesn't seem to personally impact them liberals will ignore that debt. To them it is only a number. Wonder if their personal debt is only a number?

Conservative said:

This coming from a guy who claimed he was a teacher. Can you imagine a teacher distorting the vision of our Founders and their goals for this country of a small central govt. with the power resting in the state and local communities? The Liberal "one size" fits all mantra has led to the social engineering that has occurred in this country and creation of the nanny state that keeps liberals employed. Most people in this country are looking for compassionate results, not just spending in the name of compassion that liberals promote. That feel good spending has led to the current 14.3 trillion dollar debt we have as a nation but since that doesn't seem to personally impact them liberals will ignore that debt. To them it is only a number. Wonder if their personal debt is only a number?

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Balance Conservative.

Balance is key.

There's times when you're 50 states with different agendas, and times when you're one nation.

And the way I know this is because Texas didn't fight Germany in WW2 or establish civil rights.

You think that the states should do the governing wall to wall, that's a perfectly valid opinion.

But your state of Texas will recieved $16.5 Billion over the last 2 years from the Stimilus package that you and your sweet heart governor Perry oppose.

But yet he took it anyway.

So I have one question for you... Can you give it back please?

Jetboogieman said:

Balance Conservative.

Balance is key.

There's times when you're 50 states with different agendas, and times when you're one nation.

And the way I know this is because Texas didn't fight Germany in WW2 or establish civil rights.

You think that the states should do the governing wall to wall, that's a perfectly valid opinion.

But your state of Texas will recieved $16.5 Billion over the last 2 years from the Stimilus package that you and your sweet heart governor Perry oppose.

But yet he took it anyway.

So I have one question for you... Can you give it back please?

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You sure do have a selective memory and understanding of what goes on in this country. TX took stimulus money to fund the mandates from the Federal Govt. How else should those be financed? As for balance, our Founders created this country to get away from the Central rule of Europe. It appears that liberals here want that kind of rule back.

I will be happy to demand that it be given back when those mandates from the Federal Govt. are taken back, you know little things like Medicaid, expanded unemployment benefits?

we'll happily give back the stimu... err, recovery act money

exactly one minute after you return our tax contributions

you can start with the HALF MILLION of PRINCIPAL gramma invested in SOCIAL SECURITY alone

it's not worth much to her

she DIED a month before she became ELIGIBLE

Conservative said:

You sure do have a selective memory and understanding of what goes on in this country. TX took stimulus money to fund the mandates from the Federal Govt. How else should those be financed? As for balance, our Founders created this country to get away from the Central rule of Europe. It appears that liberals here want that kind of rule back.

I will be happy to demand that it be given back when those mandates from the Federal Govt. are taken back, you know little things like Medicaid, expanded unemployment benefits?

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Why not just, fight the mandates?

You fail to comprehend my overall point.

Balance.

Balance between Federal and State and Local.

Without a relatively strong national government, your country has no direction, and without direction it flounders in a global market that is all about competition.

While I absolutely oppose China's government system, there's something to be said about pointing a billion people in a single direction.

It seems to be working.

Balance.

abolish FEDERALISM

in the name of BALANCE

LOL!

now, see what stupidity you've started, here?

The Prof said:

abolish FEDERALISM

in the name of BALANCE

LOL!

now, see what stupidity you've started, here?

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Started?

10 Chars.

Jetboogieman said:

Why not just, fight the mandates?

You fail to comprehend my overall point.

Balance.

Balance between Federal and State and Local.

Without a relatively strong national government, your country has no direction, and without direction it flounders in a global market that is all about competition.

While I absolutely oppose China's government system, there's something to be said about pointing a billion people in a single direction.

It seems to be working.

Balance.

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TX is fighting the mandates and will opt out of Medicaid but in the meantime the bills for those mandates have to be paid or how else would you expect the state to pay for them? Why don't you tell me what point I am missing? TX cannot print money, TX must have a balanced budget, TX must pay for its obligations, TX does not have a state income tax.

What seems to be happening in China is what you want to see, not the oppression, not the govt. censorship, not the mess that communism has created. The grass is always greener on the other side until you get there. What makes you think that the billion Chinese are pointed in the same direction?

Conservative said:

What seems to be happening in China is what you want to see, not the oppression, not the govt. censorship, not the mess that communism has created. The grass is always greener on the other side until you get there. What makes you think that the billion Chinese are pointed in the same direction?

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I'm not, not seeing those things Conservative.

You wanna blindly attack me on that point, go ahead.

I believe in Human rights and freedom for all.

However from a purely logical standpoint.

What they're doing, is working, and is beating you economically.

Jetboogieman said:

I'm not, not seeing those things Conservative.

You wanna blindly attack me on that point, go ahead.

I believe in Human rights and freedom for all.

However from a purely logical standpoint.

What they're doing, is working, and is beating you economically.

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Tell me what a bureaucrat in D.C. knows about the social problems in Beaumont, TX or Boise, Idaho? There is no logic in the liberal world, it is all about perception as to what the problem is. Most people don't have the same ideals as liberals and understand personal responsibility. How do you know things are working well in China as who controls the media? let me know when those Chinese create a 14.6 trillion dollar economy? It would seem that with more than three times the population they would be doing better than they are?

Conservative said:

Tell me what a bureaucrat in D.C. knows about the social problems in Beaumont, TX or Boise, Idaho? There is no logic in the liberal world, it is all about perception as to what the problem is. Most people don't have the same ideals as liberals and understand personal responsibility. How do you know things are working well in China as who controls the media? let me know when those Chinese create a 14.6 trillion dollar economy? It would seem that with more than three times the population they would be doing better than they are?

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I actually wanted to have a conversation with you.

But it turns out you want to bash liberals for awhile.

Have fun with that.

Jetboogieman said:

I actually wanted to have a conversation with you.

But it turns out you want to bash liberals for awhile.

Have fun with that.

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Part of any conversation has to be having the proper frame of reference. when you claim that China is headed in the right direction that doesn't help your credibility because that is an opinion which isn't based upon facts. China is a closed society with a media controlled by the govt. How do you know what is going on there.

AS for bashing liberals, it is so easy to do as all their rhetoric is emotion based and not factual based. Facts have no place in the liberal world as evidenced by totally ignoring actual results. Seems to me that you want to bash conservatives but cannot seem to do it factually. You started off attacking TX because it took stimulus money while ignoring what that stimulus money funded, Federal mandates. Then you claimed that TX should fight the mandates but when I told you that TX was fighting the mandates but had to pay for those mandates in the meantime you moved on to another topic.

I don't see any liberal wanting a conversation, only continued distortion of reality.

Conservative said:

Part of any conversation has to be having the proper frame of reference. when you claim that China is headed in the right direction that doesn't help your credibility because that is an opinion which isn't based upon facts. China is a closed society with a media controlled by the govt. How do you know what is going on there.

AS for bashing liberals, it is so easy to do as all their rhetoric is emotion based and not factual based. Facts have no place in the liberal world as evidenced by totally ignoring actual results. Seems to me that you want to bash conservatives but cannot seem to do it factually. You started off attacking TX because it took stimulus money while ignoring what that stimulus money funded, Federal mandates. Then you claimed that TX should fight the mandates but when I told you that TX was fighting the mandates but had to pay for those mandates in the meantime you moved on to another topic.

I don't see any liberal wanting a conversation, only continued distortion of reality.

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I'll stop you right there.

That's not what I said.

:spin:

MaggieD said:

That way we can just chase 'em right out of the country. I love it.

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That has already been happening. A lot of medium and small companies have moved R&D and production out of the USA. This doesn't make the news because it only affects a few hundred jobs at a time.

We had a USA based division with several hundred employees and planned to expanded it significantly making the USA our primary location. In 2008, when we saw the direction the country was moving, we took our foot off the accelerator and then, in 2009, we slammed on the brakes. We recently closed everything down except a subsidiary company to handle the USA sales operation. I argued against it since a good portion of our sales are in the USA and I thought it would hurt that business.

I was wrong. Our competitive position has improved (see note 1) and our USA sales and market share has increased.

BTW, our USA sub operates just slightly above breakeven. I leave it as an exercise for the class to figure out why.

I know many other companies that have made the same decision and, of those I know, have not heard from any that are planning to reverse course.


Note 1: For those who think increasing business costs in the USA is a good thing that means we have lower costs than our USA competitors and can cut prices to underprice them even more when we need to and/or make more money.

.

Jetboogieman said:

I'll stop you right there.

That's not what I said.

:spin:

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Then what exactly does this statement of yours mean if China is not headed in the right direction? You need to be clearer on what you post

While I absolutely oppose China's government system, there's something to be said about pointing a billion people in a single direction.

It seems to be working.

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Conservative said:

Then what exactly does this statement of yours mean if China is not headed in the right direction? You need to be clearer on what you post

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It's not that they're heading the right way politically.

However I'm looking at the results and not the rhetoric Conservative

They do have unbelieveble economic growth and have sustained it for a very long time through various means.

That is all.

Continue to Spin Champ.

Jetboogieman said:

It's not that they're heading the right way politically.

However I'm looking at the results and not the rhetoric Conservative

They do have unbelieveble economic growth and have sustained it for a very long time through various means.

That is all.

Continue to Spin Champ.

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We weren't talking politically. Nothing in this thread discusses politics but instead is all economic.

What results are you looking at? Percentage change in GDP? Wow, with over three times the population why aren't they generating the same level of dollars in GDP? By the way, what is the average wage in China? Is that what you want here?

haymarket said:

Yes, that is the theoretical argument. I am not denying that there are benefits to having good corporate citizens in the community. I want them there. We need them there. I want their jobs and their paychecks and their participation in the community which can be very beneficial. Yes, there is a cost/benefit relationship to this.

Now suppose for a moment that we have a national law which prohibits any level of government from creating a situation which gives an unfair economic or operating advantage to one company over others or gives them breaks or benefits that create an uneven playing field. No local tax breaks. No incentives to move there. No tax abatements. No monetary payments. Nothing from government that creates an unfair advantage or an uneven playing field for other companies.

What would be the effect of that? Companies would locate where they think they can get good workers, where there are transportation and infrastructure advantages for them, where they feel they can do business and make money. All fifty states and every community within those 50 states would be on the same even playing field.

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Lets pass your national law and play out the ramifications. No longer are communities, municipalities, or states allowed to compete with each other for business. Everyone theoretically will compete at the same level. What happens next?

One of the first things I see happening is the complete and utter destruction of rural communities and small town America. As our current infrastructure stands now, they have zero chance at competing. A two lane blacktop road 20 miles from a major highway is no logistical match to an interstate highway system to move goods and services to market. Assuming companies don't leave this country in droves, most would relocate to the major metropolitan areas. Their infrastructure advantage alone would now create a playing field that is far less than level.

Massive inflation would quickly kick in, as the salaries compensate to match the highest paid workers in the richest areas of the country. After all, a level playing field must be followed by wage and price controls. Additionally, the lack of smaller start up organizations to trim costs and reduce prices by locating in favorable business climates would stifle innovation hindering ones ability to compete against major well established corporations. After all, large corporations would benefit from economies of scale that smaller companies cannot. Eliminating the one advantage a smaller company currently has (the flexibility to move to a favorable business climate to help margins) will be the death nail of entrepreneurship in America.

Areas of the country rich in natural resources would benefit greatly from such a level playing field. Major tourist areas too would enjoy a natural benefit from a 'level playing field'. Think about it, are you more than likely to vacation in Orlando Florida or Rockford, Illinois in January? After all, a business in Rockford, Illinois will no longer be able to offer reduced hotel rates to entice tourism with a level playing field and all.

As time goes on and unfair business practice allegations are bantered about more and more laws will be passed to 'level the playing field some more'. Various chamber of commerces across the nation will shut down, whole swaths of America would cease to exist and the fabric of society which once bound us together will then start ripping us apart. I could keep going on and on in this theoretical exercise, but I figured you kinda understand where I am coming from and why I believe competition and the ability to compete helps us all; rich and poor alike.

Jetboogieman said:

It's not that they're heading the right way politically.

However I'm looking at the results and not the rhetoric Conservative

They do have unbelieveble economic growth and have sustained it for a very long time through various means.

That is all.

Continue to Spin Champ.

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I asked you what results and this is what you offer? A country with three times the population of the United States should have economic growth in dollars greater than the United States plus a standard of living and wages higher than the United States. Can you prove they have both?