Health care repeal will cost $230 billion

winston53660 · Jan 10, 2011

Conservative said:
I posted this on the other thread as well as posted it yesterday, looks to me like you ignored it just like you ignore anything else that contradicts your opinions. Here is why the CBO numbers are wrong. Pay attention to the assumptions and tell me why you don't agree?

Review & Outlook: ObamaCare's Reality Deficit - WSJ.com

From your article:

The government can't subsidize coverage for tens of millions of new people and simultaneously reduce the deficit, as most Americans seem to intuitively understand.

So what did these tens of millions do in the past? Get medicaid (a government program) possibly?

Conservative · Jan 10, 2011

haymarket said:
Is it emotionally comforting for you to believe that you are being ignored instead of facing the alternative that your were heard and utterly rejected as wrong?

No, actually I am used to it and have found that you have to post the same information over and over again to a liberal for it to sink in. Some are such blockheads that it never will but I have an obligation to continue to try and educate them. I call it my unpaid, non deductible charity work. Glad you aren't one of those blockheads and got the information.

Conservative · Jan 10, 2011

winston53660 said:
From your article:

So what did these tens of millions do in the past? Get medicaid (a government program) possibly?

Possibly and if they did it was State funded as most Medicaid is unless mandated from the Federal Govt. I am still waiting for someone to breakdown the uninsured and tell us all how many really cannot afford healthcare insurance? We all know that illegals are included in the number of uninsured and thus they don't qualify, we also know that others have access to insurance but CHOOSE not to participate, and then there are others that qualify for various programs but for whatever reason haven't signed up.

winston53660 · Jan 10, 2011

Conservative said:
Possibly and if they did it was State funded as most Medicaid is unless mandated from the Federal Govt. I am still waiting for someone to breakdown the uninsured and tell us all how many really cannot afford healthcare insurance? We all know that illegals are included in the number of uninsured and thus they don't qualify, we also know that others have access to insurance but CHOOSE not to participate, and then there are others that qualify for various programs but for whatever reason haven't signed up.

Well to start you know nothing about medicaid. It is a 50 50 program. The funds are half state the other half are federal

I am still waiting for someone to breakdown the uninsured and tell us all how many really cannot afford healthcare insurance?

This is assessed at the state level in regards to medicaid. If they determine you can afford you will not get medicaid.

We all know that illegals are included in the number of uninsured

That is not necessarily true. What hey are included in ER services not health care per say. So you are half right and half wrong.

and then there are others that qualify for various programs but for whatever reason haven't signed up.

What ticks me off...Let me tell you a true story.

The other day after an echocardiogram I get on the elevator of the tenth floor aka the cardiac ward. A man gets on the elevator in the classic hospital patient gown. This guy is bitching and moaning about how nobody will do anything for him. The nurses and what not will not do anything.

In his hand is a cigarette that he is going to smoke. HELLO as a cardiac patient no smoking is allowed and if you do they will kick you out. And they should kick people like that out that flagrantly ignore their own health care.

Conservative · Jan 10, 2011

winston53660 said:
Well to start you know nothing about medicaid. It is a 50 50 program. The funds are half state the other half are federal

This is assessed at the state level in regards to medicaid. If they determine you can afford you will not get medicaid.

That is not necessarily true. What hey are included in ER services not health care per say. So you are half right and half wrong.

What ticks me off...Let me tell you a true story.

The other day after an echocardiogram I get on the elevator of the tenth floor aka the cardiac ward. A man gets on the elevator in the classic hospital patient gown. This guy is bitching and moaning about how nobody will do anything for him. The nurses and what not will not do anything.

In his hand is a cigarette that he is going to smoke. HELLO as a cardiac patient no smoking is allowed and if you do they will kick you out. And they should kick people like that out that flagrantly ignore their own health care.

Ok, Medicaid is 50-50 and is for low income individuals so they are covered, but you said 10's of millions are uninsured and we know that the number is skewed with millions that qualify for Medicaid that don't sign up, the millions that can afford Insurance but CHOOSE not to participate, and millions of illegals' counted in the number of uninsured. What exactly is the number of true Americans that cannot afford insurance and do not qualify for existing programs.

Your story is a good one and why I don't support universal taxpayer funded healthcare and why I say that healthcare is a personal responsibility. Why should taxpayers pay for healthcare for people who abuse their bodies with cigarettes, drugs, booze, or obesity?

The Prof · Jan 10, 2011

winston53660 said:
From your article:

So what did these tens of millions do in the past? Get medicaid (a government program) possibly?

the article said tens of millions of NEW people

therefore, evidently, they weren't covered

thus, they went without or they paid their bills when they needed service or they paid part of their bills or they went to er and we all got stuck with the tab...

ie, they did what they did

THE PROBLEM is---obamacare makes it all worse

it adds mega millions to medicare WHILE REDUCING ITS FUNDING, already dire, by HALF A TRIL

and as for medicaid, where most of the new enrollees end up, the "ghetto of health care," obamacare puts millions of new members on the states' plates "without the money to pay for them"

do you need the LINKS?

i don't know why you would, they've been pasted all over this thread

the sources, i recall quite well, are THE TIMES and THE BOSTON GLOBE

the gubs who called out THEIR "mother of unfunded mandates" included dems bill richardson from new mexico (perhaps the most corrupt sitting state exec, replaced nov 2 by rising gop star susana martinez, the first hispanic female gub in us history), bill ritter (once a star in colorado who surprised all by announcing he would not seek reelection, ritter is the man who appointed michael bennet from supt of denver public schools to ken salazar's vacant senate seat when the current interior secty was promoted by obama), christine gregoire from WA, brian schweitzer in montana and PHIL BREDESEN (the leader of this blue gub rebellion, who first called out this "mother of unfunded mandates" cited so often by msm's in this discussion, who since the gub meeting where all this angst broke out has written a book calling obamacare "a stunning disappointment," and more)

bredesen (outgoing dem gub from TN):

“Government loves complexity, rules and red tape, but we may have outdone ourselves this time,” Bredesen writes. “Reform offered a chance to clean up the baroque system we have created over the years, reduce bureaucracy, lower administrative cost and give clarity and focus to a major part of where we spend our taxpayers’ money.

“Instead, we created more complexity, more regulations and the need for more bureaucracy.”

The Daily News Blog » More from Bredesen on Health Care

when you reform one sixth of the united states economy, you're sposed to make things better, you see

take care

winston53660 · Jan 10, 2011

Conservative said:
Ok, Medicaid is 50-50 and is for low income individuals so they are covered, but you said 10's of millions are uninsured and we know that the number is skewed with millions that qualify for Medicaid that don't sign up, the millions that can afford Insurance but CHOOSE not to participate, and millions of illegals' counted in the number of uninsured. What exactly is the number of true Americans that cannot afford insurance and do not qualify for existing programs.

That number is hard to pin down. For example is it broken bone a person is dealing with or is it a major organ transplant. The financial situation is totally different in both.

Your story is a good one and why I don't support universal taxpayer funded healthcare and why I say that healthcare is a personal responsibility. Why should taxpayers pay for healthcare for people who abuse their bodies with cigarettes, drugs, booze, or obesity?

I'm not an angle nor perfect. What gets me is when people are sick in the hospital and pulling **** like that.

Conservative · Jan 10, 2011

Winston53660;1059209678]That number is hard to pin down. For example is it broken bone a person is dealing with or is it a major organ transplant. The financial situation is totally different in both.

Therein lies the real problem, why present a bill of this magnitude and cost without knowing the real extent of the problem? I have always stated that healthcare was a state and local issue not a Federal issue and without knowing the actual numbers and defining the problem no one can ever solve the problem. Obama's far left ideology is playing a major role here and the majority in this country are rejecting Obamacare.

winston53660 · Jan 10, 2011

Conservative said:
Therein lies the real problem, why present a bill of this magnitude and cost without knowing the real extent of the problem? I have always stated that healthcare was a state and local issue not a Federal issue and without knowing the actual numbers and defining the problem no one can ever solve the problem. Obama's far left ideology is playing a major role here and the majority in this country are rejecting Obamacare.

One case can break a locality they will need help and they will go to the feds for this.

Conservative · Jan 10, 2011

winston53660 said:
One case can break a locality they will need help and they will go to the feds for this.

I disagree, states are doing it now, Hawaii, Indiana, and MA. Indiana seems to have a handle on costs and shows what a state can do. I don't buy the Federal involvement in this issue at all as there is no evidence that they won't screw it up and that it won't cost more than projected and do less than projected. Healthcare is a personal responsibility that is better handled in the local communities. This bill does nothing to improve quality, lower costs, and increase access. It is a total and complete lie that repealing it will cost $230 billion. It cannot cost anything to repeal something that hasn't even gone into effect and then use projected savings as a current cost.

winston53660 · Jan 10, 2011

Conservative said:
I disagree, states are doing it now, Hawaii, Indiana, and MA. Indiana seems to have a handle on costs and shows what a state can do. I don't buy the Federal involvement in this issue at all as there is no evidence that they won't screw it up and that it won't cost more than projected and do less than projected. Healthcare is a personal responsibility that is better handled in the local communities. This bill does nothing to improve quality, lower costs, and increase access. It is a total and complete lie that repealing it will cost $230 billion. It cannot cost anything to repeal something that hasn't even gone into effect and then use projected savings as a current cost.

They all recieve federal funds and you of all people are bringing up MA as an example?

God gawd do you have no respect for yourself?

Conservative · Jan 10, 2011

winston53660 said:
They all recieve federal funds and you of all people are bringing up MA as an example?

God gawd do you have no respect for yourself?

I brought up MA because that is an example of what Obamacare will do for the country. If I point out MA often enough eventually those supporting Obamacare will actually pay attention. The difference is the people of MA voted for that POS legislation and the rest of us don't have to pay for it. That wouldn't be the case with Obamacare

winston53660 · Jan 10, 2011

Conservative said:
I brought up MA because that is an example of what Obamacare will do for the country. If I point out MA often enough eventually those supporting Obamacare will actually pay attention. The difference is the people of MA voted for that POS legislation and the rest of us don't have to pay for it. That wouldn't be the case with Obamacare

With out reform on a national level healthcare will eat more and more of our GDP. As it current stands it is around 16%. That is higher than any other industrialized western nation.

Conservative · Jan 10, 2011

winston53660 said:
With out reform on a national level healthcare will eat more and more of our GDP. As it current stands it is around 16%. That is higher than any other industrialized western nation.

The difference between this country and other countries of the world most of our GDP is private sector generated. That comparison thus is moot. The healthcare industry contributes greatly to our GDP and it doesn't cost taxpayer dollars.

winston53660 · Jan 10, 2011

Conservative said:
The difference between this country and other countries of the world most of our GDP is private sector generated. That comparison thus is moot. The healthcare industry contributes greatly to our GDP and it doesn't cost taxpayer dollars.

WTH do you think medicaid and medicare are? Or the VA? Or the CDC? Or the NIH?

Conservative · Jan 10, 2011

winston53660 said:
WTH do you think medicaid and medicare are? Or the VA? Or the CDC? Or the NIH?

What does Medicaid, Medicare, and the VA have to do with Obamacare? They are however three programs that are already in place so along with private insurance why do we need Obamacare and how will repealing it cost 230 billion dollars?

winston53660 · Jan 10, 2011

Conservative said:
What does Medicaid, Medicare, and the VA have to do with Obamacare? They are however three programs that are already in place so along with private insurance why do we need Obamacare and how will repealing it cost 230 billion dollars?

The healthcare industry contributes greatly to our GDP and it doesn't cost taxpayer dollars.

Did you not say this?

The Prof · Jan 10, 2011

winston53660 said:
WTH do you think medicaid and medicare are?

they are programs maybe a hundred million americans have come to depend on like life itself

they are programs obamacare massively expands without funding, in the case of medicare obamacare actually CUTS half a T

Medicaid exists to give low-income families, especially low-income mothers and their children, access to health care. But for millions of Americans, Medicaid is an illusion. It is the appearance of coverage — without the power of access.

The program is administered by states and funded jointly by states and the federal government. And it is bankrupting both, along with physicians and hospitals.

Last year, the federal government spent $251 billion on Medicaid. Washington’s Medicaid tab is expected to rise to $458 billion by 2019, according to the Congressional Budget Office.

For state governments, most of which must balance their budgets annually, Medicaid’s escalating growth is ruinous. Responding to rising costs and budgetary pressures, 48 states were forced to adopt “at least one new policy” to restrict their ballooning Medicaid costs in 2010, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation.

Twenty states adopted Medicaid benefit restrictions, and 14 signaled intent to cut benefits next year. Thirty-nine states imposed a provider rate cut or freeze this year, and 37 plan to do so in 2011 — despite the fact that Medicaid pays providers significantly less than any other insurer and frequently less than cost.

Consequently, patients suffer. In a March 15, 2010, article titled “As Medicaid Payments Shrink, Patients Are Abandoned,” The New York Times chronicled the experiences of several patients whose Medicaid coverage would not cover needed care. One was Carol Y. Vliet, who could not find a doctor to treat her metastatic cancer after Michigan imposed yet another round of Medicaid provider payment cuts. Vliet died seven days after the article appeared.

Cases like Vliet’s are now all too common among Medicaid patients. A recent study of surgical outcomes found that patients are roughly as well off having Medicaid as they are having no health insurance, and “Medicaid payer status was associated with the longest length of stay and highest total costs” of any payer source.

All this is before the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, which would put 16 million more Americans on Medicaid. Once the new law is fully in effect, roughly one in five Americans will carry a Medicaid card. But the combination of rapid beneficiary growth with benefit and provider cuts threatens to render their cards useless.

Opinion: The dangers of the Medicaid illusion - Rep. Bill Cassidy - POLITICO.com

would you like now to look at medicare, per the times?

Conservative · Jan 10, 2011

winston53660 said:
Did you not say this?

I forgot who I was dealing with, I was talking about private healthcare companies. What Obamacare does is add to the debt thus this thread topic just perpetuates a lie.

winston53660 · Jan 10, 2011

Conservative said:
I forgot who I was dealing with, I was talking about private healthcare companies. What Obamacare does is add to the debt thus this thread topic just perpetuates a lie.

Okay sir sophistry. If you don't think that medicare or medicaid or the CDC or the NIH don't contribute to the GDP so be it.

Boo Radley · Jan 11, 2011

Conservative said:
I posted this on the other thread as well as posted it yesterday, looks to me like you ignored it just like you ignore anything else that contradicts your opinions. Here is why the CBO numbers are wrong. Pay attention to the assumptions and tell me why you don't agree?

Review & Outlook: ObamaCare's Reality Deficit - WSJ.com

I haven't ignored it. The WSJ has some nice opinion pieces. Enjoy reading them myself. However, there's nothing new in this opinion than has been said before. And nothing we haven't discussed. You just have someone who agrees with you saying it.

Yes, they score what is in front of them. And what is or isn't realistic is often a subjective reading (opinion), and not anything as sound as say math or science.

I have not claimed that the CBO will give us the exact numbers. I have used other sources to show that not only the CBO reaches this conclusion. So, there is enough evidence to show repeal will be costly as well.

Conservative · Jan 11, 2011

Boo Radley said:
I haven't ignored it. The WSJ has some nice opinion pieces. Enjoy reading them myself. However, there's nothing new in this opinion than has been said before. And nothing we haven't discussed. You just have someone who agrees with you saying it.

Yes, they score what is in front of them. And what is or isn't realistic is often a subjective reading (opinion), and not anything as sound as say math or science.

I have not claimed that the CBO will give us the exact numbers. I have used other sources to show that not only the CBO reaches this conclusion. So, there is enough evidence to show repeal will be costly as well.

To the best of my knowledge, no you didn't make the claim but you haven't refuted it either. There is NO evidence that repealing something that won't go into effect for another 3 years will be costly just like there is no evidence that access, quality, and quantity of care will improve.

Boo Radley · Jan 11, 2011

Conservative said:
To the best of my knowledge, no you didn't make the claim but you haven't refuted it either. There is NO evidence that repealing something that won't go into effect for another 3 years will be costly just like there is no evidence that access, quality, and quantity of care will improve.

Follow the argument. As the fellow from Harvrd pointed out, jobs will be lost, to start with. Money not spent by customers will effect many things, including jobs. So, there is good reason to see that it will be costly.

Conservative · Jan 11, 2011

Boo Radley said:
Follow the argument. As the fellow from Harvrd pointed out, jobs will be lost, to start with. Money not spent by customers will effect many things, including jobs. So, there is good reason to see that it will be costly.

Jobs are being lost now due to the uncertainty of Obamacare. No business is going to hire anyone not knowing the cost of hiring that individual. Money spent by the private sector isn't offset by the costs associated with the same dollar spent by the public sector. The American taxpayer doesn't fund private sector spending but it does fund public sector spending. Private sector expense generates 100% benefit to the economy, public sector spending benefit is reduced by the amount of debt that funds it.

Boo Radley · Jan 11, 2011

Conservative said:
Jobs are being lost now due to the uncertainty of Obamacare. No business is going to hire anyone not knowing the cost of hiring that individual. Money spent by the private sector isn't offset by the costs associated with the same dollar spent by the public sector. The American taxpayer doesn't fund private sector spending but it does fund public sector spending. Private sector expense generates 100% benefit to the economy, public sector spending benefit is reduced by the amount of debt that funds it.

Debatable, but the Harvard article addresses that. And shows that despite the uncertainty, jobs here have been added, and they will be lost with repeal.