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Thread: Health care repeal will cost $230 billion

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    Re: Health care repeal will cost $230 billion

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    I don't believe the government has the right to require all of its citizens to have health insurance, and it appears that at least two judges agree with me.
    Sure they can if Congress deems the economic impact to the country, the States and to the citizenry to be so paramount that a mandate is either necessary and proper or for the overall welfare of the country. All insurance is considered interstate commerce (hence, the reason the "commerce clause" was used as justification for the mandate), but commerce alone, IMO, isn't justification enough. The Constitution does grant Congress the power to write laws and levy taxes. It's a matter of if Congress is able to tie all these things (or a combination of any two) together - interstate commerce, general welfare, necessity and justifiable cause - w/taxation in order to impose a mandate.

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    Re: Health care repeal will cost $230 billion

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    People who are able to work, should be mandated to go to work. Then, they can only blame themselves for not having insurance and stop insisting that I pay for it, for them.
    Here again, nobody's harming you economically if they can afford to buy health care for themselves. But you are harmed economically if they can get health care but refuse to do so. How? Because each time someone does go to the hospital ER but does not pay for the medical treatment they receive those cost eventaully get passed on to the consumer, specifically those individuals who do have health insurance.

    I know you are aware of this - that a portion of our insurance premiums go towards paying for those non-funded health care costs. What you're complaining about - individuals on social programs like Medicaid - are dipping in your pockets via your tax dollars. But that's not the issue at hand here. Regardless, either way YOU ARE PAYING FOR IT - be it Medicaid for the poor or higher premiums due to the lazy SOB who refuses to get health care but can afford to do so.

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    Re: Health care repeal will cost $230 billion

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    Sure they can if Congress deems the economic impact to the country, the States and to the citizenry to be so paramount that a mandate is either necessary and proper or for the overall welfare of the country. [
    Welfare hmm..

    Quote Originally Posted by me
    The term general welfare as in the "welfare clause" is describing the broad ends of the constitution i.e., justice, domestic tranquility, common defense, and liberty, It is meant to enlarge the dominion of government beyond the enumeration itself, but not to give power. In federalist #41 madison was talking about what "General Welfare" meant and why it was included in the document. In his explaining he is describing the purposes of the enumerated powers and provide more specific meaning to the general purposes of the government.
    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    All insurance is considered interstate commerce (hence, the reason the "commerce clause" was used as justification for the mandate), but commerce alone, IMO, isn't justification enough. The Constitution does grant Congress the power to write laws and levy taxes. It's a matter of if Congress is able to tie all these things (or a combination of any two) together - interstate commerce, general welfare, necessity and justifiable cause - w/taxation in order to impose a mandate.
    Quoting myself again..

    Quote Originally Posted by me
    The commerce clause gives the federal government the ability to settle disputes among states and among nations, it does NOT grant them the power to control business, to make people buy healthcare, or even to regulate business on their own accord.
    Think about it like this, the commerce clause gives them the ability to be the middle man, to make sure commerce between states is going the way the states desire. It doesn't really do anything else.

    As for Necessity and justifiable cause. What? I'm sorry, but where is that?
    Last edited by Henrin; 01-07-11 at 06:35 PM.

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    Re: Health care repeal will cost $230 billion

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    Here again, nobody's harming you economically if they can afford to buy health care for themselves. But you are harmed economically if they can get health care but refuse to do so. How? Because each time someone does go to the hospital ER but does not pay for the medical treatment they receive those cost eventaully get passed on to the consumer, specifically those individuals who do have health insurance.

    I know you are aware of this - that a portion of our insurance premiums go towards paying for those non-funded health care costs. What you're complaining about - individuals on social programs like Medicaid - are dipping in your pockets via your tax dollars. But that's not the issue at hand here. Regardless, either way YOU ARE PAYING FOR IT - be it Medicaid for the poor or higher premiums due to the lazy SOB who refuses to get health care but can afford to do so.
    Why do you continue to buy what this Administration tells you. How do you keep your current healthcare program and doctor if they go out of business? You claim there is no cost and base that opinion from an Administration that claimed their stimulus plan would cap unemployment at 8% and that Recovery summer would add 500,000 jobs a month. They then claimed their economic policy would cut the deficit in half by the end of his first term and create 4% economic growth per year every year. None of those projections were right yet now we are to believe them on a program that doesn't go into effect for another 3 years?

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    Re: Health care repeal will cost $230 billion

    Henrin,

    Necessary and Proper clause to the U.S. Constitution: Art. I, Sec. 8, Clause 18 -

    The Congress shall have Power - To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

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    Re: Health care repeal will cost $230 billion

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    Henrin,

    Necessary and Proper clause to the U.S. Constitution: Art. I, Sec. 8, Clause 18 -
    Oh yes, thank you for reminding me. That clause doesn't actually give new powers either though.

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    Re: Health care repeal will cost $230 billion

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Why do you continue to buy what this Administration tells you. How do you keep your current healthcare program and doctor if they go out of business? You claim there is no cost and base that opinion from an Administration that claimed their stimulus plan would cap unemployment at 8% and that Recovery summer would add 500,000 jobs a month. They then claimed their economic policy would cut the deficit in half by the end of his first term and create 4% economic growth per year every year. None of those projections were right yet now we are to believe them on a program that doesn't go into effect for another 3 years?
    I'm not buying anything the Administration tells me. I can read, you know. There's plenty of information out there on the health care issue. Why do you continue supporting ideals that are contradictory?

    You want people to be responsible for themselves, yet here we are debating the merits of "freedom of choice" over "personal responsibility". That's really what this health care debate boils down to. It's really not about providing health care options to those who can't afford to buy health insurance. It's about people who can afford to buy insurance, but instead are sticking up for their right to choose to buy or not to buy insurance for themselves and would rather refuse to do so dispite knowing that this goes contrary to "being responsible".

    For me, it's a common sense thing plus personal responsibility. If I'm employeed and my salary is enough that I can afford to buy health insurance, I'll buy it. If not, I'll do like every other poor person and find a program I can afford to insure myself and my family - socialized or otherwise. But atleast I'm "being responsible".

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    Re: Health care repeal will cost $230 billion

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Oh yes, thank you for reminding me. That clause doesn't actually give new powers either though.
    Who said anything about giving Congress new powers? The Constitution has always given Congress this authority. They just have to ensure that whatever law is wirtten is within their power to pass. If such is in question, it's up to the Supreme Court to determine whether or not they overstepped their bounds.

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    Re: Health care repeal will cost $230 billion

    Quote Originally Posted by SirPwn4lot View Post
    I'm sort of with the Republicans on this one. I want it repealed. Unlike the Republicans I'd replace it with something that isn't the biggest joke of the millennium so far... I don't think I could come up with a more laughable bill if I tried.

    For a Communist Obama certainly keeps a good disguise up. Seems like it would be in the interests of a Communist to... you know... do something remotely communistic... Instead he didn't pass universal healthcare (which most, if not all other developed nations have, so I suppose they're all super communists, even their conservative parties increase health spending lol), he didn't pass a public option (which to a communist would be only the most unacceptably ridiculous compromise ever), he didn't even properly aim to fix up the status quo a little, it was all rhetoric.

    Regardless of what I think on the subject, it WILL be repealed. And it will be bipartisan. Just watch.
    What would you replace it with?

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    Re: Health care repeal will cost $230 billion

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    That's not a link. Just saying.
    unbelievable

    Obamacare Ends Construction of Doctor-Owned Hospitals | The Weekly Standard

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