Page 13 of 16 FirstFirst ... 31112131415 ... LastLast
Results 121 to 130 of 156

Thread: US Treasury asks Congress to lift debt ceiling

  1. #121
    I'm not-low all the time
    Kushinator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    West Loop
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:19 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    16,263

    Re: US Treasury asks Congress to lift debt ceiling

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Tell that to the 16 million plus unemployed Americans along with the employed Americans who now have to pay for another 3.5 trillion added to the debt.
    Your addiction to fallacies is more amusing to me, than it is embarrassing to you (lack of realization). The benefits of current policy do outweigh the cost. The United States has still maintained its AAA credit rating, while unemployment (u-3) has been contained.

    Doesn't seem that that BEA got the same partisan memo that you got because GDP growth is meager at best and job creation is terrible.
    Then your gripe is with the private sector, as we (private sector) are the engine of economic growth. But..., expansion (as opposed to short term asset accumulation) is quite risky given the slack in labor markets.

    1.3 million stopped looking for jobs in December. Looks like the American people aren't buying the rhetoric either and rightly so.
    U-6 unemployment fell as well (which incorporates discouraged workers). The question remains; what did these people leave the labor force to do? My money is on upskilling.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

  2. #122
    Sage
    Conservative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:28 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    67,295

    Re: US Treasury asks Congress to lift debt ceiling

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    Your addiction to fallacies is more amusing to me, than it is embarrassing to you (lack of realization). The benefits of current policy do outweigh the cost. The United States has still maintained its AAA credit rating, while unemployment (u-3) has been contained.



    Then your gripe is with the private sector, as we (private sector) are the engine of economic growth. But..., expansion (as opposed to short term asset accumulation) is quite risky given the slack in labor markets.



    U-6 unemployment fell as well (which incorporates discouraged workers). The question remains; what did these people leave the labor force to do? My money is on upskilling.
    You and Krugman can have your little dream world. 1.3 million discouraged workers plus 14.5 million unemployed still make the reported unemployment close to 16 million, hardly a number anyone can be proud of. We generated these numbers by adding 3.5 trillion to the debt. So let's see, trillions of dollars have been spent and things are getting better? Good Lord, I would hope so but at what cost? If you spent this much money in a business and generated these kind of results you would be fired.

  3. #123
    Sage

    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Last Seen
    05-16-15 @ 02:32 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    12,537

    Re: US Treasury asks Congress to lift debt ceiling

    dy/dx aside...

    Markets hoped that December’s payroll report would mark a breakthrough for the US economy’s recovery, with a surge in private job creation towards 200,000 – a level that would finally put a dent in the unemployment rate.

    Instead they got a murky mixture of a report, prompting one economist, Rob Carnell of ING Bank, to call it an “utter mess” and question why markets focus so much on payrolls at all.

    The problem is that the monthly payrolls report contains two different measures – a survey of households and a survey of employers – and in December they pointed in different directions.

    The employment survey, the normal focus of attention, showed overall growth in payrolls of only 103,000. That was well below expectations, especially after a disappointing November report and a remarkably high estimate from private- sector payroll processor ADP earlier this week.

    Yet the household survey, from which the unemployment rate is calculated, sent a completely different message. It showed an extra 297,000 people in jobs and 260,000 fewer people in the labour force. The combination of the two was enough to cause a drop in the unemployment rate from 9.8 to 9.4 per cent.

    The reality – taking the trend in both measures and other recent data together – is likely to be somewhere in between. Jobs growth is picking up a bit to more than 100,000 a month but still shows no sign of a dramatic acceleration.

    Ben Bernanke, Federal Reserve chairman, struck a similar note in testimony to Congress prepared before the release of the payrolls data. “Although recent indicators of spending and production have generally been encouraging, conditions in the labour market have improved only modestly at best,” Mr Bernanke said.

    Most analysts attribute the fall in labour force participation and therefore the fall in the unemployment rate, to the expiry of long-term unemployment benefits in December.

    If you no longer receive unemployment benefits, the theory goes, then you no longer have any reason to tell a survey you are actively looking for work. The number of “discouraged workers”, who say that they are no longer looking for a job because they do not think they can find one, was 1.3m in December.

    Congress has since renewed long-term unemployment benefits. A likely consequence is that the size of the labour force will bounce back in January, reversing the fall in the unemployment rate.

    A further disappointment was in the average duration of a spell of unemployment, which rose from 21.7 to 22.4 weeks, suggesting that those people who are finding jobs have not been out of work for long.
    FT.com / US / Economy & Fed - US jobs report an

    fyi

  4. #124
    I'm not-low all the time
    Kushinator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    West Loop
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:19 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    16,263

    Re: US Treasury asks Congress to lift debt ceiling

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    You and Krugman can have your little dream world. 1.3 million discouraged workers plus 14.5 million unemployed still make the reported unemployment close to 16 million, hardly a number anyone can be proud of. We generated these numbers by adding 3.5 trillion to the debt.
    Why the pressing need to use argumentive fallacies in every response? Hopefully this site can be of some assistance.

    As far as your discouraged workers comment, you do understand that this is falling as well.

    So let's see, trillions of dollars have been spent and things are getting better? Good Lord, I would hope so but at what cost? If you spent this much money in a business and generated these kind of results you would be fired.
    I agree! The private sector does not have the means to alleviate (make a depression a recession) because we focus on the bottom line in the short term.

    So i must ask you a very basic and direct question, and i am hoping for a response. If the Federal Government did not increase the deficit by $1 trillion, would GDP (in 2009) have fallen by at least $1 trillion?
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

  5. #125
    Sage
    Conservative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:28 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    67,295

    Re: US Treasury asks Congress to lift debt ceiling

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    Why the pressing need to use argumentive fallacies in every response? Hopefully this site can be of some assistance.

    As far as your discouraged workers comment, you do understand that this is falling as well.



    I agree! The private sector does not have the means to alleviate (make a depression a recession) because we focus on the bottom line in the short term.

    So i must ask you a very basic and direct question, and i am hoping for a response. If the Federal Government did not increase the deficit by $1 trillion, would GDP (in 2009) have fallen by at least $1 trillion?
    That is your opinion as there is nothing to back up that claim at all. Why you claim to be a Libertarian is beyond me. No Libertarian supports this massive healthcare program. The private sector given the proper incentive has not only the means but the ability to alleviate the recession. Happens every time except with more liberal social engineering.

    As for the question, i was against the TARP bailout but understood it, further it was basically a loan and most of it has been paid back. There is no way of knowing what would have happened without the bailout but we do know what has happened with the Obama Stimulus, 4 million more unemployed and 3.5 trillion added to the debt creating very low economic growth
    Last edited by Conservative; 01-09-11 at 03:32 PM.

  6. #126
    I'm not-low all the time
    Kushinator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    West Loop
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:19 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    16,263

    Re: US Treasury asks Congress to lift debt ceiling

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    That is your opinion as there is nothing to back up that claim at all.
    What are you referring to? The fact that you constantly resort to the use of fallacies because you cannot articulate your point in a compelling manner? Your post history is my "evidence".

    Why you claim to be a Libertarian is beyond me.
    Another fallacy.

    No Libertarian supports this massive healthcare program.
    And another; better read up on that site i previously posted.

    The private sector given the proper incentive has not only the means but the ability to alleviate the recession. Happens every time except with more liberal social engineering.
    How long are you willing to wait? You see, i have quite a bit of assets in equity markets. Watching them fall to 1/8 their purchased price is not something I, nor anyone who has any sort of wealth is willing to do.

    As for the question, i was against the TARP bailout but understood it, further it was basically a loan and most of it has been paid back. There is no way of knowing what would have happened without the bailout but we do know what has happened with the Obama Stimulus, 4 million more unemployed and 3.5 trillion added to the debt creating very low economic growth
    Lets do a simple example to get the point across.

    GDP = Y

    Y= C + I + G + NX

    Assume in year one, C= 100, I= 20, G= 20, and NX= 0; Y= 140

    Now a demand shock comes along and pushes consumption and investment down by 10% each.

    C= 90, I= 18, and G (well lets just leave G constant)= 20; Y= 128

    Now assume government can run a deficit and increase G to 30

    C= 90, I= 18, G= 30, and Y now equals 138.

    Where would the economy be better off, when GDP is 128 or 138?
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

  7. #127
    Sage
    Conservative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:28 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    67,295

    Re: US Treasury asks Congress to lift debt ceiling

    Goldenboy219;1059206922]What are you referring to? The fact that you constantly resort to the use of fallacies because you cannot articulate your point in a compelling manner? Your post history is my "evidence".
    you have no evidence that we would have gone into a depression without the govt. spending, NONE!

    Another fallacy.
    Really? Libertarians support massive expansion of the govt.?


    And another; better read up on that site i previously posted.
    I prefer history books and actual non partisan data which shows 4 million more unemployed today than when Obama took office and 3.5 trillion added to the debt yet you claim things are better?


    How long are you willing to wait? You see, i have quite a bit of assets in equity markets. Watching them fall to 1/8 their purchased price is not something I, nor anyone who has any sort of wealth is willing to do.
    Sounds like poor investment choices to me. Now you want the govt. to bail you out? So much for personal responsibility.



    Lets do a simple example to get the point across.

    GDP = Y

    Y= C + I + G + NX

    Assume in year one, C= 100, I= 20, G= 20, and NX= 0; Y= 140

    Now a demand shock comes along and pushes consumption and investment down by 10% each.

    C= 90, I= 18, and G (well lets just leave G constant)= 20; Y= 128

    Now assume government can run a deficit and increase G to 30

    C= 90, I= 18, G= 30, and Y now equals 138.

    Where would the economy be better off, when GDP is 128 or 138?

    Not interested in your equations and theory because that is all they are, reality seems to disagree with you. Assumptions are just that and are about as good as the assumptions given to the CBO by Congress. I prefer reality.

    Consumption= almost 2/3rds of GDP and thus is consumer driven. When you have 16 milllion less employed that affects consumption thus consumer spending. obama stimulus plan did nothing to promote the private sector to create jobs.

    Goldenboy, you can throw out your theory and assumptions until hell freezes over but all they do is prove that you don't understand our consumer driven private sector economy. Get your head out of the books and get out in the real world. Take Krugman with you.

  8. #128
    I'm not-low all the time
    Kushinator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    West Loop
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:19 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    16,263

    Re: US Treasury asks Congress to lift debt ceiling

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    you have no evidence that we would have gone into a depression without the govt. spending, NONE!
    It was just explained to you in the simplest way.

    Really? Libertarians support massive expansion of the govt.?
    Do you even understand what an argumentative fallacy is?

    I prefer history books and actual non partisan data which shows 4 million more unemployed today than when Obama took office and 3.5 trillion added to the debt yet you claim things are better?
    The link was to a list of all argumentative fallacies and their descriptions. Do try and keep up!

    Sounds like poor investment choices to me. Now you want the govt. to bail you out? So much for personal responsibility.
    I did quite fine following the market crash in 2008, and early 2009. I was able to short (buy puts/sell calls) on a great deal of financial firms, specifically Chinese banks, and then purchase greatly devalued US Financial equities at a discount. Partially because Chairman Bernanke put his hand underneath the market to prevent a liquidationist bottom (otherwise i wouldn't have bought Citi at 1.22/share). Many other people did not fare so well.

    Not interested in your equations and theory because that is all they are, reality seems to disagree with you. Assumptions are just that and are about as good as the assumptions given to the CBO by Congress. I prefer reality.
    This is reality; GDP is complied from this very simple equation.

    Consumption= almost 2/3rds of GDP and thus is consumer driven. When you have 16 milllion less employed that affects consumption thus consumer spending. obama stimulus plan did nothing to promote the private sector to create jobs.
    Deficit spending prevented GDP from falling far lower than it did. This is an undeniable fact, and national product accounts attest to this.

    Goldenboy, you can throw out your theory and assumptions until hell freezes over but all they do is prove that you don't understand our consumer driven private sector economy. Get your head out of the books and get out in the real world. Take Krugman with you.
    And another fallacy (actually two). The only person in this discussion who lacks an even basic understanding of capitalism is surely not you. You cannot even hold a conversation without pushing anti-intellectualism as a means to camoflague your inadaquecies regarding such topics.

    Remember, this is the internet. Your ideas will be judged on the basis of their validity. So far, all you can muster is a slew of fallacies, attacks, and calls to "dumb down" the discussion to ease your insecurity. Certainly nothing to be proud of.
    Last edited by Kushinator; 01-09-11 at 05:18 PM.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

  9. #129
    I'm not-low all the time
    Kushinator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    West Loop
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:19 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    16,263

    Re: US Treasury asks Congress to lift debt ceiling

    The facts are on my side:

    Notice how investment is falling, government spending is increasing, and GDP stays above $14 trillion.

    Gross investment fell by $706 billion, while government spending increased by $240 billion.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

  10. #130
    Sage
    Conservative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:28 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    67,295

    Re: US Treasury asks Congress to lift debt ceiling

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    It was just explained to you in the simplest way.



    Do you even understand what an argumentative fallacy is?



    The link was to a list of all argumentative fallacies and their descriptions. Do try and keep up!



    I did quite fine following the market crash in 2008, and early 2009. I was able to short (buy puts/sell calls) on a great deal of financial firms, specifically Chinese banks, and then purchase greatly devalued US Financial equities at a discount. Partially because Chairman Bernanke put his hand underneath the market to prevent a liquidationist bottom (otherwise i wouldn't have bought Citi at 1.22/share). Many other people did not fare so well.



    This is reality; GDP is complied from this very simple equation.



    Deficit spending prevented GDP from falling far lower than it did. This is an undeniable fact, and national product accounts attest to this.



    And another fallacy (actually two). The only person in this discussion who lacks an even basic understanding of capitalism is surely not you. You cannot even hold a conversation without pushing anti-intellectualism as a means to camoflague your inadaquecies regarding such topics.

    Remember, this is the internet. Your ideas will be judged on the basis of their validity. So far, all you can muster is a slew of fallacies, attacks, and calls to "dumb down" the discussion to ease your insecurity. Certainly nothing to be proud of.
    Deficit spending on the part of the Govt. has to be paid for and is in debt service and printing more money. It doesn't solve the problem as evidenced by the results. You believe the economy staying about 14 trillion is a good thing when the debt is now almost 100% of GDP?

    Goldenboy, I lived and worked in the real world. Nothing you say is going to change my mind nor the actual results generated. When the GDP is maintained at these levels because of Govt. spending it is the cost that destroys your message. If all that govt. spending is so good, let's just completely destroy the private sector and let the govt. run 100% of the economy? Of course you know the reason that isn't done but are too much of an ideologue to admit it.

    How my ideas are judged here doesn't matter, what matters are the actual results. "Your" President has implemented an economic policy boosted by massive govt. spending and has created 4 million more unemployed people and added 3.5 trillion to the debt. Those are undeniable facts. All your comments are theory and intellectual psychobabble that doesn't put the food on the table for millions of unemployed Americans including millions more that aren't being counted

Page 13 of 16 FirstFirst ... 31112131415 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •