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Thread: State lawmakers taking aim at amendment granting birthright citizenship

  1. #51
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    Re: State lawmakers taking aim at amendment granting birthright citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    IN case no one else brought this is up there is the "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof,". If the 14 amendment meant any and everybody born in the USA is a citizen then why not have "All persons born or naturalized in the United States are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside." instead of "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside." Obviously the bold part is just as important as the part of being born here. Why else have the Indian citizenship act of 1924 and the nationality act of 1940 if any and everybody born in the USA is a citizen? The 14th amendment was created to make the freed from slavery and their children citizens of the US.
    The "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof," refers to Indians and later diplomats who did not fall under the force of federal law. Illegal immigrants ARE subject to the law of the United States, through they are breaking it through their very presense. However, the just born baby did NOT break that law and are very much subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.
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  2. #52
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    Re: State lawmakers taking aim at amendment granting birthright citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    So children born on American soil to parents who are here illegally aren't subject to the jurisdiction of the United States?

    Everybody standing on American soil is subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.
    Except those with diplomatic immunity and Indians on reservations... THAT is what the clause so frequently cited applies to...
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  3. #53
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    Re: State lawmakers taking aim at amendment granting birthright citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    So children born on American soil to parents who are here illegally aren't subject to the jurisdiction of the United States?

    Everybody standing on American soil is subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.
    Why have and subject to the jurisdiction thereof in the 14th amendment if just being born here is good enough for citizenship? Obviously is not or else they would not have added it.
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    Re: State lawmakers taking aim at amendment granting birthright citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Except those with diplomatic immunity and Indians on reservations... THAT is what the clause so frequently cited applies to...
    So far as I'm aware, reservations aren't American soil in the sense that they're sovereign territory much in the same way a foreign embassy is.

    As far as it goes with diplomatic immunity, that is in fact not true. They are indeed subject to the jurisdiction of the United States while they're here.

    ETA: If you're saying that that language was intended to exclude the children of diplomats born on US soil, I'm with you there.
    Last edited by TacticalEvilDan; 01-09-11 at 11:17 AM.
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    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

  5. #55
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    Re: State lawmakers taking aim at amendment granting birthright citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    The "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof," refers to Indians and later diplomats who did not fall under the force of federal law.
    Doesn't the constitution trump federal law? So that argument doesn't really fly.


    Illegal immigrants ARE subject to the law of the United States, through they are breaking it through their very presense. However, the just born baby did NOT break that law and are very much subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.
    So in other words the 14th amendment does not mean everybody born here is a citizen.
    How are the children of illegals subject when native Americans and diplomats were not?
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

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    Re: State lawmakers taking aim at amendment granting birthright citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Why have and subject to the jurisdiction thereof in the 14th amendment if just being born here is good enough for citizenship? Obviously is not or else they would not have added it.
    To exclude the children of foreign diplomats.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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    Re: State lawmakers taking aim at amendment granting birthright citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    but you can't even alter the amendment without the passage of a new amendment, you DO know that, right???
    Let's take a moment and have clarity that you are going from the argument that the 14th is going to be completely repealed, to the argument that the 14th is going to be changed unconstitutionally.

    *breath in*......*breath out*......ok then

    As a matter of fact, no, I didn't know that, and I confess I don't have perfect clarity on the legislation at hand, either, as I can't seem to find the actual proposed legislation itself.
    Last edited by Jerry; 01-09-11 at 07:32 PM.

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    Re: State lawmakers taking aim at amendment granting birthright citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Chappy View Post
    I think the 14th Amendment is pretty clear in its meaning. And, before the 14th, we had slavery in this country, a permanent class of non-citizen human beings who never knew any other land but this one.

    You think repealing the 14th Amendment just applies to those foreign looking, Spanish speaking people but forget that we are a nation of equal protection under the law. No 14th Amendment applies to you, too.

    With no 14th Amendment your American birth certificate doesn't prove a Goddamn thing anymore — same thing for that Social Security card you're waving around: you may have obtained it under false pretenses back when a 14th Amendment assured us that you were ‘legal’ solely by reference to that American birth certificate. No more.

    If your claim to citizenship in this country is based on your American birth certificate then without the 14th Amendment only your parent's legal immigration status at the time of your birth assures us that you are in fact a citizen. That's not a straw man; that's the law.

    Papers please.
    Let's see the law?
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    Re: State lawmakers taking aim at amendment granting birthright citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Chappy View Post
    Are you an American under the terms of this effort that you agree with so ‘compleatly?’ Since you don't know how to spell c-o-m-p-l-e-t-e-l-y you're likely an English as a second language immigrant which means that this will be easy for you to prove that you're a legal citizen — just show us your naturalization papers.

    But, if you have the great blessing of being born in this country, then under the terms of this new effort to repeal the 14th Amendment the only way to prove you are here legally is to prove that your parents were here legally when you were born. Please provide your parents' naturalization papers, please.

    Oh, and if your parents were born in this country, too, then, as you know, without the 14th Amendment, to prove that you actually belong here and not somewhere far, far away from here, we'll be requiring your grandparents papers. All four, please. No worries, we'll wait here while you track them down. Thanks in advance.

    And, if any of them were blessed and born in this country, then, you know the drill at this point, without the 14th Amendment, we'll be requiring both your great-grandparents naturalization papers. This could be a set of eight naturalization papers; I guess you could have a nice book to keep them all together.

    God bless you for complying with the law. Of course, if you don't fulfill the legal requirements the alternative is to let us know what country you'll be traveling to. It might be one that none of your ancestors have known for generations, but, it's where you'll be going for the rest of your life. Please go without burdening real American taxpayers you God damn illegal immigrant!

    Thank you for your cooperation.
    I love your post!! Now having said that . . .

    I don't think it is unreasonable to deny citizenship to a baby born of illegal parents...and we can easily confirm parents' citizenship status. We have got to do something!. If not that, then what?
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  10. #60
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    Re: State lawmakers taking aim at amendment granting birthright citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    I am by no means a liberal, but this is misguided. People born in the United States are US citizens under the Constitution. End of story. If they want to change this, you need to change the Constitution, which isn't going to happen in this case.
    Yeah, I don't think any court in the country is going to declare the constitution unconstitutional.

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