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Thread: State lawmakers taking aim at amendment granting birthright citizenship

  1. #21
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    Re: State lawmakers taking aim at amendment granting birthright citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    It has always been my view that the original author should be the one to decide what something they wrote means. Not those that can see a way of twisting it to their own advantage.
    Multiple authors with different perspectives + Ambiguously phrased laws = Indefinite meaning.

    What you fail to appreciate is that almost all our laws were phrased ambiguously because laws needed to be passed but people wanted to avoid immediate conflict. As such, many disputes between the federalists and the Democratic-Republicans in the Early Republic centered around the courts, where the battles over interpretation played out.

    Liberals complain that conservatives are misguided to believe Founder's intent is codified law, but any close examination of our legal history demonstrates that is the wrong criticism; "Author's intent" isn't a concept with uniform meaning, because the lawmakers intend ambiguously phrased language to mean different things.

    Not statically either. A lawmaker's opinion of a law's meaning is set to change depending on a number of conditions.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 01-06-11 at 04:25 AM.
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    Re: State lawmakers taking aim at amendment granting birthright citizenship

    I agree completely that allowing people to break the laws, come here, pop out a kid, and then use that kids citizenship as an emotional club to beat the American people into granting them absolution from their crime was not what people invisioned as the purpose of the 14th amendment.

    Then again, I'm sure the founders didn't invision the 2nd amendment allowing someone to fire off two or three clips of ammo in the time it took them to shoot, reload, and shoot again. Or that the 1st amendment would allow someone to be heard by over a million people at the same time if not more.

    But those unforseen things aren't reason enough for us as conservatives to go along with laws like assult weapons bans or the fairness doctrine.

    I have sympathy for these states and agree with their desire for this, and think its the correct desire to have. But there's a method to do what they want to do and the end around they're doing isn't right. Its something conservatives have rallied against when liberals have done it time and time again, and it is an afront to our principles if we do similar. The constitution is important...ALL of it...and that includes the proper means of bypassing constitutional requirements.

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    Re: State lawmakers taking aim at amendment granting birthright citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I agree completely that allowing people to break the laws, come here, pop out a kid, and then use that kids citizenship as an emotional club to beat the American people into granting them absolution from their crime was not what people invisioned as the purpose of the 14th amendment.

    Then again, I'm sure the founders didn't invision the 2nd amendment allowing someone to fire off two or three clips of ammo in the time it took them to shoot, reload, and shoot again. Or that the 1st amendment would allow someone to be heard by over a million people at the same time if not more.

    But those unforseen things aren't reason enough for us as conservatives to go along with laws like assult weapons bans or the fairness doctrine.

    I have sympathy for these states and agree with their desire for this, and think its the correct desire to have. But there's a method to do what they want to do and the end around they're doing isn't right. Its something conservatives have rallied against when liberals have done it time and time again, and it is an afront to our principles if we do similar. The constitution is important...ALL of it...and that includes the proper means of bypassing constitutional requirements.
    How much money is spent on entitelment programs, because of the 1st and 2nd Amendments?

    The mass shootings you reference happened in gun free zones. What good did the law restricting guns do?

    How many of these illegal aliens that are now anchored down with a kid are we going to pay for?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: State lawmakers taking aim at amendment granting birthright citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    I am by no means a liberal, but this is misguided. People born in the United States are US citizens under the Constitution. End of story. If they want to change this, you need to change the Constitution, which isn't going to happen in this case.
    States can stop granting residence status to these people.
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    Re: State lawmakers taking aim at amendment granting birthright citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Chappy View Post
    Will the insanity never cease? Are there really this many state lawmakers so ignorant of the essentialness of 14th Amendment to preventing a subclass from forming in this country?
    IMO, the 14th has been misintrepreted for many years. One should read what the original authors wanted the 14th to do. It has nothing to do with todays illegals entering the US hand having kids.

    http://www.14thamendment.us/birthrig...al_intent.html

    The correct interpretation of the 14th Amendment is that an illegal alien mother is subject to the jurisdiction of her native country, as is her baby.

    Over a century ago, the Supreme Court appropriately confirmed this restricted interpretation of citizenship in the so-called "Slaughter-House cases" [83 US 36 (1873) and 112 US 94 (1884)]13. In the 1884 Elk v.Wilkins case12, the phrase "subject to its jurisdiction" was interpreted to exclude "children of ministers, consuls, and citizens of foreign states born within the United States." In Elk, the American Indian claimant was considered not an American citizen because the law required him to be "not merely subject in some respect or degree to the jurisdiction of the United States, but completely subject to their political jurisdiction and owing them direct and immediate allegiance."

    The Court essentially stated that the status of the parents determines the citizenship of the child. To qualify children for birthright citizenship, based on the 14th Amendment, parents must owe "direct and immediate allegiance" to the U.S. and be "completely subject" to its jurisdiction. In other words, they must be United States citizens.

    Congress subsequently passed a special act to grant full citizenship to American Indians, who were not citizens even through they were born within the borders of the United States. The Citizens Act of 1924, codified in 8USCSß1401, provides that:
    Last edited by mike2810; 01-06-11 at 12:38 PM.
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    Re: State lawmakers taking aim at amendment granting birthright citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    How much money is spent on entitelment programs, because of the 1st and 2nd Amendments?
    Sorry, I don't see conservative principles with regards to the constitution something that I pick and choose when I want to apply them based on when its convient to me politically, economically, etc.

    The mass shootings you reference happened in gun free zones. What good did the law restricting guns do?
    What mass shootings was I referencing? I was thinking going out to a gun range and firing a few clips from an automatic weapon. Where the **** are you getting me talking about shootings in a gun free zone?

    How many of these illegal aliens that are now anchored down with a kid are we going to pay for?
    Unfortunantly, as many as get born here and do nothing but suck off of the government tit. And that's going to be the case until we:

    1. Improve immigration across the board with regards to security, enforcement, temporary entry laws, etc

    2. Reform the entitlement programs that they use

    3. Pass a constitutional amendment

    4. Manage to argue the point before the courts and get the Supreme Court to rule that your interpritation is the correct one.

    Doing an unconstitutional end around simply because some think its quicker and easier is not an acceptable option to me. ****ting upon conservative principle in the name of conservative ideals is counter productive and violates the very nature of labeling oneself as principled, a staunch conservative, or a defender of that political belief system. If your principles only matter up to the point where they're problematic to you then you're anything but principled. You don't do unconstitutional end arounds because you dislike the constitution.

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    Re: State lawmakers taking aim at amendment granting birthright citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Sorry, I don't see conservative principles with regards to the constitution something that I pick and choose when I want to apply them based on when its convient to me politically, economically, etc.



    What mass shootings was I referencing? I was thinking going out to a gun range and firing a few clips from an automatic weapon. Where the **** are you getting me talking about shootings in a gun free zone?



    Unfortunantly, as many as get born here and do nothing but suck off of the government tit. And that's going to be the case until we:

    1. Improve immigration across the board with regards to security, enforcement, temporary entry laws, etc

    2. Reform the entitlement programs that they use

    3. Pass a constitutional amendment

    4. Manage to argue the point before the courts and get the Supreme Court to rule that your interpritation is the correct one.

    Doing an unconstitutional end around simply because some think its quicker and easier is not an acceptable option to me. ****ting upon conservative principle in the name of conservative ideals is counter productive and violates the very nature of labeling oneself as principled, a staunch conservative, or a defender of that political belief system. If your principles only matter up to the point where they're problematic to you then you're anything but principled. You don't do unconstitutional end arounds because you dislike the constitution.
    I'm think part of the 14th Amend should be repealed. I don't think it serves any purpose, as the founders didn't find it necessary originally. Apparently the definition of citizen was based on common sense.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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    Re: State lawmakers taking aim at amendment granting birthright citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    I'm think part of the 14th Amend should be repealed. I don't think it serves any purpose, as the founders didn't find it necessary originally. Apparently the definition of citizen was based on common sense.
    And I absolutely and completely support that repeal, and have said so in this thread. Because that would be the correct way of going about it.

  9. #29
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    Re: State lawmakers taking aim at amendment granting birthright citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Lots of strawmans here. You do know that when the 14th amendment was made and before SCOTUS decided that it included those born here when it originally didn't that people got along just fine as regards to weather they were citizens or not? No one went around asking for peoples parents birth certificates or any crap like that.

    But hey, look what we have today....Social Security Cards AND our own personal birth certificates if worse comes to worse. No need for parents BC.

    And yes, I support bringing the 14th back to its original meaning as written and argued for by its original author. Who specifically told members of congress, while they were debating on adding it, that it was never meant to include those that came here illegally.
    I think the 14th Amendment is pretty clear in its meaning. And, before the 14th, we had slavery in this country, a permanent class of non-citizen human beings who never knew any other land but this one.

    You think repealing the 14th Amendment just applies to those foreign looking, Spanish speaking people but forget that we are a nation of equal protection under the law. No 14th Amendment applies to you, too.

    With no 14th Amendment your American birth certificate doesn't prove a Goddamn thing anymore — same thing for that Social Security card you're waving around: you may have obtained it under false pretenses back when a 14th Amendment assured us that you were ‘legal’ solely by reference to that American birth certificate. No more.

    If your claim to citizenship in this country is based on your American birth certificate then without the 14th Amendment only your parent's legal immigration status at the time of your birth assures us that you are in fact a citizen. That's not a straw man; that's the law.

    Papers please.
    Last edited by Chappy; 01-06-11 at 01:59 PM.
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    Re: State lawmakers taking aim at amendment granting birthright citizenship

    I guess somebody forgot to tell these schmucks that deciding who does and does not get to be a citizen is so far out of their jurisdiction that they may as well be holding a press conference on Uranus.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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