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Thread: Obama aide: Debt limit fight could be "catastrophic"

  1. #521
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    Re: Obama aide: Debt limit fight could be "catastrophic"

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Isn't it wonderful that all that great healthcare in Europe and Canada is costing more than expected and causing problems within the country. Your rankings are irrelevant, so which is it today, costs or access. You still have so much faith in the Federal Govt. doing what they have never done and what apparently you cannot get done in your state. What will contribute to the health of this nation is personal responsibility, proper eating habits, less alcohol consumption, less drug usage. You want to contribute to those that abuse their bodies do so through your local charities not through forced redistribution by the Federal Govt.

    It looks to me like you cannot convince your local state to do what you want the Federal Govt. to do and ignore anything that contradicts your point of view. Again, healthcare is a personal responsibility because you control what you do to your body. You have the ability to help people in your own state but choose not to instead wanting to force the U.S. taxpayer to fund your own personal choice problems. Seems to me you want the Europe system to be implemented here even with the European problems.
    More than expected? Less then we spend, but you say more than expected? By who? And is it more than expected, or a response to other problems that put pressure on their government, just as other factors put pressure on ours?

    Are you sure health care is not a public health issue? But if it is a personal responsiblity as you say, are you willing to say hosptials can refuse to treat patients who can't pay, regardless of the consequences?

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  2. #522
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    Re: Obama aide: Debt limit fight could be "catastrophic"

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    First, liberals see things no more this way than republicans. Some republiecans have said here that you either agree with them, or you're stupid. But I digress.

    Ok, ok...You're right on this. Let me go waaaaay back to the old days when I first started posting on boards at all....

    No matter what party you're in, or not in, that is always the question. Neither party or anyone else for that wants to say. But cuts that don't address Medicaid / Medicare, SS and military spending are meaningless. That is where the discussion starts. For me, the first place to start is with the two wars and nation building we are currently involved in.

    Agreed. Pull out of both at this point and concentrate on our own problems, I get it Joe. Ok, let's say a 20% cut across the board of everything including defense, lord knows they probably have enough waste to cover that. Raise SS retirement age to 70 yrs old to be phased in for those entering the workplace now. Medicaid/Medicare is a losing proposition as it is now, problem is that other than shifting more of the cost to individual responsibility, I don't see how at this point it can remain solvent.

    A retrun to the pre-Bush tax cuts rates would be a fine start. They were not oppressive then and wouldn't be now.
    Right now my effective tax rate is about 35%, under a plan which you describe, it would jump effectively to over 43%, do you believe that at this time the economy could sustain that?

    I don't.

    When it ever gets voted one, the exact language would matter, but in principle, paying for what you get is reasonable and responsible. Eventually, that has to be the goal.

    I agree, it is absurd to continue to run government like we are allowing it today.

    I'm kind of bouncing back and forth between things right now, and would want to be more specific on this question. So, I'll wait on it for a time. But I will say, there is much out there on this, and with as sound support and disagreement as what republicans promote now. Specifics are what will always need to be debated. And it has been shown that in the past, we've done well and poorly with no proof that taxes effected either significantly.
    I look forward to reading what you come up with.


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    Re: Obama aide: Debt limit fight could be "catastrophic"

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Actually, the numbers have been presented to you before. It would help the deficit. It actually would.
    Sorry, but those numbers have not been presented but even if they were they would be suspect because the govt. success in projecting revenue hasn't been good at all especially when it comes to human behavior. I really suggest you learn human behavior and get your head out of the books that promote theory. How much will an increase in taxes on the rich add to the govt. revenue and then prove it?

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    Re: Obama aide: Debt limit fight could be "catastrophic"

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Sorry, but those numbers have not been presented but even if they were they would be suspect because the govt. success in projecting revenue hasn't been good at all especially when it comes to human behavior. I really suggest you learn human behavior and get your head out of the books that promote theory. How much will an increase in taxes on the rich add to the govt. revenue and then prove it?
    Yes, you have:

    A Republican plan to extend tax cuts for the rich would add more than $36 billion to the federal deficit next year -- and transfer the bulk of that cash into the pockets of the nation's millionaires, according to a congressional analysis released Wednesday.

    GOP plan to extend tax cuts for rich adds $36 billion to deficit, panel finds

    Republicans want to extend all the cuts, which would cost the Treasury Department $238 billion, according to the taxation committee.

    Analysts Detail Tax Cuts

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Obama aide: Debt limit fight could be "catastrophic"

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Yes, you have:

    A Republican plan to extend tax cuts for the rich would add more than $36 billion to the federal deficit next year -- and transfer the bulk of that cash into the pockets of the nation's millionaires, according to a congressional analysis released Wednesday.

    GOP plan to extend tax cuts for rich adds $36 billion to deficit, panel finds

    Republicans want to extend all the cuts, which would cost the Treasury Department $238 billion, according to the taxation committee.

    Analysts Detail Tax Cuts
    Again, you buy studies that ignore human behavior and still buy what you are told from an Administration that has yet to tell the truth on any issue. Where is the guarantee that 36 billion will be used to reduce the deficit and 36 billion if applied to the deficit will reduce the deficit from 1.3 trillion to 1.26 trillion? Certainly no downside in your world to raising taxes because again you don't even know how human behavior works.

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    Re: Obama aide: Debt limit fight could be "catastrophic"

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Agreed. Pull out of both at this point and concentrate on our own problems, I get it Joe. Ok, let's say a 20% cut across the board of everything including defense, lord knows they probably have enough waste to cover that. Raise SS retirement age to 70 yrs old to be phased in for those entering the workplace now. Medicaid/Medicare is a losing proposition as it is now, problem is that other than shifting more of the cost to individual responsibility, I don't see how at this point it can remain solvent.
    This is where a single payer system would help most (besides removing it from the employer, making business more competitve internationally). With a single payer system, and everyone paying premiums to one place, and not having the goverment paying for those most likely to be ill, with much less funds than available in a single payer system, we would have a better and more efficient system than we have now.

    Right now my effective tax rate is about 35%, under a plan which you describe, it would jump effectively to over 43%, do you believe that at this time the economy could sustain that?
    Why not? We certainly ahve before, at even a higher rate. There is little to no evidence that tax rates have any significiant effect on the econmomy. But it does provide more money to fund present programs and reduce the debt. Any serious deficit reduction effort will include spending cuts and tax increases.




    I agree, it is absurd to continue to run government like we are allowing it today.
    Always good to agree.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Obama aide: Debt limit fight could be "catastrophic"

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Yes, you have:

    A Republican plan to extend tax cuts for the rich would add more than $36 billion to the federal deficit next year -- and transfer the bulk of that cash into the pockets of the nation's millionaires, according to a congressional analysis released Wednesday.

    GOP plan to extend tax cuts for rich adds $36 billion to deficit, panel finds

    Republicans want to extend all the cuts, which would cost the Treasury Department $238 billion, according to the taxation committee.

    Analysts Detail Tax Cuts

    Are there any economists that would disagree with your two examples, which btw, resemble more an echo chamber of Keynesian thought than anything else. The WaPo, and a site that take contributors for articles from the WaPo.


    j-mac
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    Re: Obama aide: Debt limit fight could be "catastrophic"

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Are there any economists that would disagree with your two examples, which btw, resemble more an echo chamber of Keynesian thought than anything else. The WaPo, and a site that take contributors for articles from the WaPo.


    j-mac
    Economists that follow the Austrian school of economic would (Ron Paul suppports this school)
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    Re: Obama aide: Debt limit fight could be "catastrophic"

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    Economists that follow the Austrian school of economic would (Ron Paul suppports this school)
    Ok, so my point however small, is that Joe posted something he agrees with, by no means is the definitive be all and end all in the debate.


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    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Obama aide: Debt limit fight could be "catastrophic"

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    This is where a single payer system would help most (besides removing it from the employer, making business more competitve internationally). With a single payer system, and everyone paying premiums to one place, and not having the goverment paying for those most likely to be ill, with much less funds than available in a single payer system, we would have a better and more efficient system than we have now.

    Why not? We certainly ahve before, at even a higher rate. There is little to no evidence that tax rates have any significiant effect on the econmomy. But it does provide more money to fund present programs and reduce the debt. Any serious deficit reduction effort will include spending cuts and tax increases.

    Always good to agree.
    Theory and concepts are what you offer. You believe that the concept of a single payer trumps the actual results of a single payer i.e. Medicare and SS.

    You believe the concept of increasing taxes increases govt. revenue while ignoring human behavior and the part that incentive plays in economic activity.

    History has shown that the Federal Govt. has created a 14.5 trillion dollar debt with most of that due to social engineering and book concepts that don't play out in reality. Liberalism was built on good intentions but a total failure in reality. Liberal arrogance doesn't allow for the present liberals to blame previous liberals for their economic failures as evidenced by the results. This group of liberals has a arrogance that believes they can do better than yesterdays liberals when the reality is same concept, same results. So your answer is let the govt. that has failed in economic policy now continue with Obamacare. The majority in this country don't see it your way, are they wrong?

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