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Thread: Obama aide: Debt limit fight could be "catastrophic"

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    Re: Obama aide: Debt limit fight could be "catastrophic"

    Boo Radley;1059209336]What I have argued, and correctly I think, is that the problem is in all fifty states, and that it is a national problem. And certainly if we did go to a universal payer, it would be paid for by every single person in the nation.
    No, what you have stated is your opinion and you base that opinion upon the average cost of healthcare in this country vs. other countries around the world. What you ignore are those costs by state vary by state thus in some states the problem is much greater than others.

    As for a universal payer system, there is no clamoring for that yet but there will be if Obamacare destroys the current healthcare system which it is bound to do. More and more people are going to call for govt. help when another Obama promise turns out to be a lie, that being of course that if you want your current program or doctor you can keep them. If the doctor or the program go out of business then they cannot keep what they have. Without doctors and a program these people are going to demand a govt. solution.

    And no, while the CBO numbers may not be exact, they do present something to consider. Remember, I linked another who gave who made a similar argument with out the CBO numbers. There is little doubt it will be costly to repeal the refrom. Exactly how costly may be debatable. But there is enough information out there to suggest it will costly. The CBO is just another set of numbers.

    If you are going to consider CBO numbers then you need to also consider the assumptions that generated those numbers. Tell me which of those major assumptions you agree with?

    How can there be any cost to repeal a program that hasn't gone into effect?

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    Re: Obama aide: Debt limit fight could be "catastrophic"

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    What I have argued, and correctly I think, is that the problem is in all fifty states, and that it is a national problem. And certainly if we did go to a universal payer, it would be paid for by every single person in the nation.

    And no, while the CBO numbers may not be exact, they do present something to consider. Remember, I linked another who gave who made a similar argument with out the CBO numbers. There is little doubt it will be costly to repeal the refrom. Exactly how costly may be debatable. But there is enough information out there to suggest it will costly. The CBO is just another set of numbers.
    Why the CBO numbers aren't accurate, again, not the CBO's fault but indeed the fault of Congress

    Review & Outlook: ObamaCare's Reality Deficit - WSJ.com

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    Re: Obama aide: Debt limit fight could be "catastrophic"

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Why the CBO numbers aren't accurate, again, not the CBO's fault but indeed the fault of Congress

    Review & Outlook: ObamaCare's Reality Deficit - WSJ.com
    Not disputed. And not meaningful to the point I made. Remember, I also gave you another source.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Obama aide: Debt limit fight could be "catastrophic"

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Not disputed. And not meaningful to the point I made. Remember, I also gave you another source.
    Your other source still doesn't recognize the inaccuracy of the CBO in making predictions predicated on human behavior and 10 years out. There is no evidence that increasing the numbers of people on the insurance roles will reduce costs and there is no evidence that the Federal Govt. has ever reduced costs on any social program.

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    Re: Obama aide: Debt limit fight could be "catastrophic"

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    No, what you have stated is your opinion and you base that opinion upon the average cost of healthcare in this country vs. other countries around the world. What you ignore are those costs by state vary by state thus in some states the problem is much greater than others.

    As for a universal payer system, there is no clamoring for that yet but there will be if Obamacare destroys the current healthcare system which it is bound to do. More and more people are going to call for govt. help when another Obama promise turns out to be a lie, that being of course that if you want your current program or doctor you can keep them. If the doctor or the program go out of business then they cannot keep what they have. Without doctors and a program these people are going to demand a govt. solution.




    If you are going to consider CBO numbers then you need to also consider the assumptions that generated those numbers. Tell me which of those major assumptions you agree with?

    How can there be any cost to repeal a program that hasn't gone into effect?
    Actually, not true. Not only have I looked at the country as a whole, but I've even presented you a state by state view. Remember, Hawaii number 1 and Indianan 32nd? So, no, this is a problem in all fifty states. And not even number one Hawaii has completely addressed the problem effectively.

    And while I can't speak to "clamor," there are and have been for decades good arguments for a universal system. And that is before reform.

    And no, I fully understand the assumptions the CBO was based on and keep feeling like you're not really reading what I presented for you. Read my response again.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Obama aide: Debt limit fight could be "catastrophic"

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Your other source still doesn't recognize the inaccuracy of the CBO in making predictions predicated on human behavior and 10 years out. There is no evidence that increasing the numbers of people on the insurance roles will reduce costs and there is no evidence that the Federal Govt. has ever reduced costs on any social program.
    It doesn't use the CBO. So, the CBO has no bearing in it.

    And don't change the subject again.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Obama aide: Debt limit fight could be "catastrophic"

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Actually, not true. Not only have I looked at the country as a whole, but I've even presented you a state by state view. Remember, Hawaii number 1 and Indianan 32nd? So, no, this is a problem in all fifty states. And not even number one Hawaii has completely addressed the problem effectively.

    And while I can't speak to "clamor," there are and have been for decades good arguments for a universal system. And that is before reform.

    And no, I fully understand the assumptions the CBO was based on and keep feeling like you're not really reading what I presented for you. Read my response again.
    You base your entire argument based upon cost, not quality or what goes into establishing those costs. Comparing a Free Enterprise economy to the European or other world models is comparing apples to oranges. Healthcare costs are handled by the individual in this country, not the Federal Taxpayers and when you expand govt. control over this part of the economy, you increase debt which offsets any perceived benefits. As for individual states, you have the same problem, every state is different with some doing a good job others having massive immigration problems as well as malpractice claims. Those costs are paid for by the citizens of the states, not the Federal Taxpayer. You don't pay for the costs of illegals' in TX, I do, and that is something you dont' seem to understand. There is no line item on the budget of the U.S. for Obamacare.

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    Re: Obama aide: Debt limit fight could be "catastrophic"

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    You base your entire argument based upon cost, not quality or what goes into establishing those costs. Comparing a Free Enterprise economy to the European or other world models is comparing apples to oranges. Healthcare costs are handled by the individual in this country, not the Federal Taxpayers and when you expand govt. control over this part of the economy, you increase debt which offsets any perceived benefits. As for individual states, you have the same problem, every state is different with some doing a good job others having massive immigration problems as well as malpractice claims. Those costs are paid for by the citizens of the states, not the Federal Taxpayer. You don't pay for the costs of illegals' in TX, I do, and that is something you dont' seem to understand. There is no line item on the budget of the U.S. for Obamacare.
    No, I don't. Which again suggests you aren't really reading everything. I have said to you constantly that cost is but one part of the equation. Access is the other. For those with no or limited access, quaility is nil. So, in a system where some have excellent quality, and others have much less, access is a problem. Working to provide at least adequate care for all, while still keeping the bells and whistles for the wealthy, is the goal. Paying a lot to get less and less, as we've been doing for decades, is not smart. Getting more, even if we pay a little more, is a better alternative. Paying less and getting more, better yet.

    BTW, there is no pruely capitalistic country of significance in the world today, including the US. That ship sailed long ago. Today, before reform, healthcare is paid for by the individual, insurance companies, charities, state government and the federal government. It id done rather haphazardly, and with too much wasted work and costly efforts, very ineffecitently. The mere streamlining of a univerisal payer alone would save money. A good bit of money.

    And I showed you the numbers of your state. Illegals, factually, are but a small percentage of the costs you pay. It's a problem, sure, but not the only problem, or even the largest problem. Just an easy target.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Obama aide: Debt limit fight could be "catastrophic"

    Boo Radley;1059210822]No, I don't. Which again suggests you aren't really reading everything. I have said to you constantly that cost is but one part of the equation. Access is the other. For those with no or limited access, quaility is nil. So, in a system where some have excellent quality, and others have much less, access is a problem. Working to provide at least adequate care for all, while still keeping the bells and whistles for the wealthy, is the goal. Paying a lot to get less and less, as we've been doing for decades, is not smart. Getting more, even if we pay a little more, is a better alternative. Paying less and getting more, better yet.
    How is access working out for the universal care in MA? If you are willing to pay more then do so through your state, not expand the problem nationally.

    BTW, there is no pruely capitalistic country of significance in the world today, including the US. That ship sailed long ago. Today, before reform, healthcare is paid for by the individual, insurance companies, charities, state government and the federal government. It id done rather haphazardly, and with too much wasted work and costly efforts, very ineffecitently. The mere streamlining of a univerisal payer alone would save money. A good bit of money.
    What you continue to ignore is that every dollar spent by the govt. is paid for by the U.S. Taxpayer or borrowed money and that delutes any benefit at all. If you think that the govt. can do the work more effeciently you have yet to offer proof. Medicare and SS are both filled with waste, fraud and abuse funded by the taxpayer. Waste, fraud, and abuse at the private level is funded by the company. increasing competition is the answer, not massive expansion of govt. control.


    And I showed you the numbers of your state. Illegals, factually, are but a small percentage of the costs you pay. It's a problem, sure, but not the only problem, or even the largest problem. Just an easy target.
    And I pointed out that 600,000 was spent in my county alone for illegal care. your belief that the illegal problem is a small percentage is irrelevent because it is a cost just like Malpractice suits are a cost. There are large administrative costs to the Federal Govt. along with other costs as well which you seem to ignore. Waste, fraud, and abuse in the Federal govt. is a cost as well, significant and reduces the benefit to the taxpayers.

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    Re: Obama aide: Debt limit fight could be "catastrophic"

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    How is access working out for the universal care in MA? If you are willing to pay more then do so through your state, not expand the problem nationally.
    IS MA the only conmparison possible? How about Hawaii. Seems access is better there, and you side calls them scoalisitc.

    But, this reform is neither comparable to Hawaii or MA. It's different. And I say we need more, and not less.


    What you continue to ignore is that every dollar spent by the govt. is paid for by the U.S. Taxpayer or borrowed money and that delutes any benefit at all. If you think that the govt. can do the work more effeciently you have yet to offer proof. Medicare and SS are both filled with waste, fraud and abuse funded by the taxpayer. Waste, fraud, and abuse at the private level is funded by the company. increasing competition is the answer, not massive expansion of govt. control.
    I have not ignored that at all. I'm the one that keeps telling you nothing is free. Tax payers pay for it one way or another, and through taxes might actually cost less than what we're doing now, which is uncontrolled and unmonitored.



    And I pointed out that 600,000 was spent in my county alone for illegal care. your belief that the illegal problem is a small percentage is irrelevent because it is a cost just like Malpractice suits are a cost. There are large administrative costs to the Federal Govt. along with other costs as well which you seem to ignore. Waste, fraud, and abuse in the Federal govt. is a cost as well, significant and reduces the benefit to the taxpayers.
    I think you said your state, but I gave you a link to the actual numbers, and showed it was a smaller portion.

    And there are huge administrative costs to state governments and to insurance companies. presently, we're paying all those costs. No streamlining.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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