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Thread: Obama aide: Debt limit fight could be "catastrophic"

  1. #211
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    Re: Obama aide: Debt limit fight could be "catastrophic"

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    hey Ditto, what's shakin'?
    Life is good, except that I wanted to go skiing today, but it's so foggy that driving to the mountains would be like playing Russian Roulette. So, here I sit, reading wisdom and nonsense and typing the same back to the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Allow me to address your reasonable response. First off using the clip that I, and ksu offered. Setting the stage correctly, the woman in question was over 100 I believe, and had her faculties in tact, and wanted to live. She had insurance, and my guess is that she had been covered for some decades privately before this point, so the question of 'all of the sudden' cost is off the table in my eyes.

    The more troubling question is what should be done in your scenario where a terminal disease is on the table. And at that point in my mind it is still the persons call, and NOT governments call. It is her life we are talking about here. But you are making the assumption that treatment would only extend her life by 1 month.
    Agreed. It should be the decision of the patient, doctors, and family.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    I know of many cases, one was a very good friend in Maryland who's wife had cancer, and was diagnosed to pass away in less than a year. That was in 1995. She is still alive today due to treatments that doctors told my friend would only extend her life a couple of months. So, estimates are not always correct are they?

    No, medicine is not an exact science. There are miracles now and again. Does that mean that we, meaning either taxpayers or ratepayers or both, keep providing care regardless of cost or probable outcome, indefinitely?
    Or does that mean that the patient making the decision also pays the tab?

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    The alternative you say is to let nature take its course, however what you are saying is Let her die. Now you don't say it outright, so I guess others could say you never said that, but what other conclusion is to be arrived on? Some miracle?
    Letting nature take its course with someone that old and sick most likely does mean allowing that person to die with dignity. Sooner or later, we all die. Of course, there is that slim chance of a miracle, whether there is an expensive treatment used or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    The question of what I would want, is moot, because supposing that she is of sound mind, it is HER decision, no one else's.
    Absolutely.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    The decision of who pays can be addressed in a couple of ways. First, instead of just stopping the possible and condemning the woman to certain death, try the treatment, and look at ways to get those costs down without the either or decision of death or life involved.
    That would be a miracle of a different sort.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Second, and more grim is to assemble panels governmentally to determine who is worthy of life, is that a plausible situation for you? Because it is for some around our President.
    Is it? Or is it the situation posed by opponents of health care reform?
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: Obama aide: Debt limit fight could be "catastrophic"

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Life is good, except that I wanted to go skiing today, but it's so foggy that driving to the mountains would be like playing Russian Roulette. So, here I sit, reading wisdom and nonsense and typing the same back to the world.

    Bummer! All that fresh powder and all.


    Agreed. It should be the decision of the patient, doctors, and family.
    Thanks

    No, medicine is not an exact science. There are miracles now and again. Does that mean that we, meaning either taxpayers or ratepayers or both, keep providing care regardless of cost or probable outcome, indefinitely?
    Or does that mean that the patient making the decision also pays the tab?
    Who says they don't? Many cases the estate is billed for end of life care, and if the patient lives, they they get the bill.

    Letting nature take its course with someone that old and sick most likely does mean allowing that person to die with dignity. Sooner or later, we all die. Of course, there is that slim chance of a miracle, whether there is an expensive treatment used or not.
    Interesting question, how would we know what works, and what doesn't, or IOW, how do we further science by saying that we refuse to fund anymore experimental treatments? Are we done learning?

    That would be a miracle of a different sort.
    Just a tougher question, its much easier to tell grandma that she should choose death and save her family the burden, than it is the tell the med companies to reign it in.

    Is it? Or is it the situation posed by opponents of health care reform?
    Oh, I think it is a question of my own dignity. As I get older, I can only hope to be able to make my own damned decisions.


    j-mac
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    Re: Obama aide: Debt limit fight could be "catastrophic"

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post

    The alternative is to keep her comfortable and let nature take its course.
    A brilliant plan!!

    In fact that should be the response of all doctors! Just let nature take its course!

    That would cut down on hospital care, emergency treatment, long term patient care if we only just get comfortable and let nature take its course.

    Of course you'd still have the bureaucracy shuffling papers around at a trillion $$$ a years or so, but it would still be a colossal saving. And the Left is all about saving money.

  4. #214
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    Re: Obama aide: Debt limit fight could be "catastrophic"

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Bummer! All that fresh powder and all.
    Yes, it is. Oh well, it's still cold, and the powder will keep for a while longer.


    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Thanks



    Who says they don't? Many cases the estate is billed for end of life care, and if the patient lives, they they get the bill.
    and in many cases it isn't, and medical insurance and/or Medicare picks up the tab. If the patient is indigent, and Medicare doesn't pay for some reason, then Medicaid pays, and gets paid back from the estate, if there is an estate.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Interesting question, how would we know what works, and what doesn't, or IOW, how do we further science by saying that we refuse to fund anymore experimental treatments? Are we done learning?
    Yes, it is an interesting question. Do we want to experiment on the dying? That needs to be the decision of the patient, too. Does the experimenter pay, or does the patient pay?



    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Just a tougher question, its much easier to tell grandma that she should choose death and save her family the burden, than it is the tell the med companies to reign it in.
    The problem is, costs are what they are. Medical research is expensive. Hospitals are expensive. Doctors are expensive. Medical school is expensive. To say that the "med companies should reign it in" is to ignore those costs. If they simply eat the cost, then someone else has to pay somewhere down the line, either through higher taxes, or through higher premiums. There is no free lunch.


    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Oh, I think it is a question of my own dignity. As I get older, I can only hope to be able to make my own damned decisions.


    j-mac
    Me too, j-mac, me too.
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    Re: Obama aide: Debt limit fight could be "catastrophic"

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    And here we see it folks....I did make a statement, one that deserves back up of my contentions, and am providing them in post after post, but the example of how the liberals here, not only refuse to address those facts, but instead, chose to go on Allensky style ad hominem attacks, and ignore what is actually presented them I give you one example.....of many....

    I posted this:

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1059198503

    To which Mr. Invisible responded:

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1059198508

    Now notice how he refused to address the video at all, or even address the entire post. No, he took the first paragraph, and used it to pull me out of context as if I hadn't posted anything other than what he quoted, while ignoring the substance of the post itself. Further Hazelnut feels the need to jump in with:

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1059198510

    By aggressively using the term 'genius' he is attempting to use intimidation to get me to back down from my argument, this is covered in Rules for Radicals as marginalization of your opponent. It is a tired, and washed up tactic.

    Then Hazel returns two postings later, to not address anything of substance, but rather throw more insults:

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1059198513

    You liberals are a complete joke! You are not interested in facts, or achieving anything other than complete capitulation from those that disagree with you, and as such are not only a waste of bandwidth, but a waste of time. I can only hope that at some point we can have a real discussion of facts, but I rather doubt it.


    j-mac
    Guess what? The video said absolutely nothing about Obama wanting to kill off seniors. How about you stop making up s*** that's not true? Once again, I ask you to provide proof that Obama himself said or implied that he wanted to kill of seniors.
    Last edited by Mr. Invisible; 01-05-11 at 02:34 PM. Reason: Addition
    "And in the end, we were all just humans, drunk on the idea that love, only love, could heal our brokenness."

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    Re: Obama aide: Debt limit fight could be "catastrophic"

    [QUOTE=Dittohead not!;1059198835]



    No, medicine is not an exact science. There are miracles now and again. Does that mean that we, meaning either taxpayers or ratepayers or both, keep providing care regardless of cost or probable outcome, indefinitely?
    Or does that mean that the patient making the decision also pays the tab?
    And that's what it comes down too, Folks. Soon that will be the response to heart transplants, hip replacements, and then ever lesser ailments. And of course while all this is going on the government and the left will want more control over what you eat, drink, and so on. That's already happening of course but it is not yet prohibited under law.

    Wherever you have national health care this will be the response by many. Obamacare hasn't even taken effect and already decisions are being made as to who should live and who should die.

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    Re: Obama aide: Debt limit fight could be "catastrophic"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Invisible View Post
    Guess what? The video said absolutely nothing about Obama wanting to kill off seniors. How about you stop making up s*** that's not true? Once again, I ask you to provide proof that Obama himself said or implied that he wanted to kill of seniors.

    What do you suppose the effect of taking the pain pill over a life extending treatment is? You're tilting at windmills over semantics. You want to hear Obama say unequivocally 'We should kill old people' when you know that level of absolute statement is absurd in politics. So, the discussion is done over this part, you can believe what you want, I will as well, but stay tuned, and pay attention.


    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: Obama aide: Debt limit fight could be "catastrophic"

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    What do you suppose the effect of taking the pain pill over a life extending treatment is? You're tilting at windmills over semantics. You want to hear Obama say unequivocally 'We should kill old people' when you know that level of absolute statement is absurd in politics. So, the discussion is done over this part, you can believe what you want, I will as well, but stay tuned, and pay attention.


    j-mac
    Once again, in that first video:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Invisible
    He was talking about getting rid of unnecessary practices and tests that studies show have no health value whatsoever. He said nothing about killing her.
    "And in the end, we were all just humans, drunk on the idea that love, only love, could heal our brokenness."

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    Re: Obama aide: Debt limit fight could be "catastrophic"

    [QUOTE=Grant;1059199003]
    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post





    And that's what it comes down too, Folks. Soon that will be the response to heart transplants, hip replacements, and then ever lesser ailments. And of course while all this is going on the government and the left will want more control over what you eat, drink, and so on. That's already happening of course but it is not yet prohibited under law.

    Wherever you have national health care this will be the response by many. Obamacare hasn't even taken effect and already decisions are being made as to who should live and who should die.
    I loved this bit....


    http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mo...happy-meal-ban


    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: Obama aide: Debt limit fight could be "catastrophic"

    Quote Originally Posted by Whovian View Post
    Obama aide: Debt limit fight could be catastrophic | Reuters



    Congress has raised the debt ceiling six times in the last three years to keep pace with our deteriorating financial situation. It is currently pegged at $14.3 trillion, but to put this in perspective, a little over three years ago the debt limit was less than $9 trillion.

    It seems the Democrats solution (yes, I blame the Democrats for the last 6 increases, as they were in control and the vote was along party lines), to the problem of spending beyond our means... is to simply increase or credit limit and keep spending.

    The GOP wants to end this practice, and the Obama administration considers that possibly catastrophic. Typical.
    There are actually 2 sides to this story.

    1) If we don't raise the debt ceiling, then the US defaults on all it's debt, thus causing a financial panic that would be even worse than the Great Depression.

    2) If we do raise the debt ceiling, then the US is only delaying the inevitable.

    Fact is, there is no way in hell we are ever going to be able to pay back what we owe. So let's just default now. Yes, it will hurt like hell, but better to bite the bullet now, than put it off to a future date, when the result will be even worse.

    And, when it comes time to pay the piper, whether now, or in the future, we had better damn well hope that we have learned our lesson, and finally begin to start living within our means. There are NO money trees. The money we are spending now has to come from someplace, and when we spend recklessly, that money comes directly from the asses that we are all putting on the line, and are soon going to be handed to us. When it all hits the fan, then let's make a point of never acting so fiscally irresponsible, ever again. After all, it's OUR asses.

    My opinion? Time to bite the bullet, folks.
    The ghost of Jack Kevorkian for President's Physician: 2016

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