• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Oil rises above $90 amid US crude supply drop

Well let's see.....I mowed, used the weed eater and the power blower on my lawn today (allusing fossil fuels).

Jumped in My Wife's Mustang and took her out for an amazing steak dinner.....drove it home...jumped in my electrically heated Hot Tub and and drank wine with her.

I don't care about your "Carbon Footprint", or your obsession with fraudulant science...now....as for the judgements of others....not my concern.

My carbon footprint is a fraction of yours which means that I both spend less money on energy than you do and I better protect the environment for future generations. I leave it to others to determine if that is wise or foolish.
 
americans vote their minds

you gotta problem with that too?

they vote according to many factors,
their minds are too distracted to know what is going on, so they pick a side of some issue and vote accordingly...
might be abortion, might be guns, might be anything SIMPLE, because they don't understand even the most basic tenets of economics.
 
Well let's see.....I mowed, used the weed eater and the power blower on my lawn today (allusing fossil fuels).

Jumped in My Wife's Mustang and took her out for an amazing steak dinner.....drove it home...jumped in my electrically heated Hot Tub and and drank wine with her.

I don't care about your "Carbon Footprint", or your obsession with fraudulant science...now....as for the judgements of others....not my concern.

Understood clearly. ME, ME, ME, ME, me, me, me, me and me. And you surely won't have to trouble your beautiful mind with logic, reason, humanity, or any distasteful ethical concerns. Change your diet. Try encouraging those synaptic triggers.
 
How troubling....the Left is so myopic....go judge those who don't have the capacity to laugh in the face of your derision.

You buy into every silly argument put forth by Gore and the rest...you probably own a copy of both "Earth In The Balance" and "An Inconvenient Truth".

I have survived "The Population Bomb", "Acid Rain"....."Global Cooling"...and every OTHER apocalyptic prediction put forth by your silly leaders...I give freely to those I choose to give to...and if you want anyore you'll have to come take it, we clear?

....and no...I am not rich.....oh yes, and I rest in the knowledge that everything I have..I earned. Deal with it.

Understood clearly. ME, ME, ME, ME, me, me, me, me and me. And you surely won't have to trouble your beautiful mind with logic, reason, humanity, or any distasteful ethical concerns. Change your diet. Try encouraging those synaptic triggers.
 
And here I am thinking of becoming a driver again. I will have to get something that uses about as much energy as a can opener.
 
Understood clearly. ME, ME, ME, ME, me, me, me, me and me. And you surely won't have to trouble your beautiful mind with logic, reason, humanity, or any distasteful ethical concerns. Change your diet. Try encouraging those synaptic triggers.

he needs more fiber, lots and lots of fiber, then a dose of salts.....:2razz:
 
Last edited:
Naa....just confronting the condescension and fake superiority of the Left suuplies all the fiber I need.

Fiber does for the body what extremist thinking does for the brain, fills it up with things that need to be flushed periodically.

But from where I stand, the left does seem to be a bit better educated. I could be wrong, but all my far right neighbors seem awfully stupid. Maybe I just don't know enough extreme lefties.....
 
Ahhh well....catawba thinks anyone to the right of himself is an extremist...I am actually to ticks to Right of Center....Fiscal Conservative/Social Libertarian...but I don't have any use for the condesencion of either extreme....

Fiber does for the body what extremist thinking does for the brain, fills it up with things that need to be flushed periodically.

But from where I stand, the left does seem to be a bit better educated. I could be wrong, but all my far right neighbors seem awfully stupid. Maybe I just don't know enough extreme lefties.....
 
Fiber does for the body what extremist thinking does for the brain, fills it up with things that need to be flushed periodically.

But from where I stand, the left does seem to be a bit better educated. I could be wrong, but all my far right neighbors seem awfully stupid. Maybe I just don't know enough extreme lefties.....

You miss the commendable right thinking that boils down to "I don't give a rat's ass about anyone but me" and the repetitious media playing the music to that lyric. It is so much easier not to think and also profitable if you show your buzzwords to your management as you segue into a robust mode going forward. )hint: going forward implies that what you are doing is not the foundation for a future disaster( Using the buzzwords shows that your conditioning is working. My italics seem not to be going forward, if that worries you.
 
You miss the commendable right thinking that boils down to "I don't give a rat's ass about anyone but me" and the repetitious media playing the music to that lyric. It is so much easier not to think and also profitable if you show your buzzwords to your management as you segue into a robust mode going forward. )hint: going forward implies that what you are doing is not the foundation for a future disaster( Using the buzzwords shows that your conditioning is working. My italics seem not to be going forward, if that worries you.

commendable? how so? or is that sarcasm? if not, don't explain, I no comprende jibberish.....

As for "I don't give a rat's ass about anyone but me" , our Canadian friend on PGS, Red Green, says, "we're all in this together".....
 
My hybrid gets better mileage than your Harley and it was designed to burn ethynol (but I'm sure the oil companies appreciate the extra you chip in at the pump), and my energy bills for heating and cooling my passive solar house is about 40% of the costs for a conventional home.

If you really have a passive solar house, look up Patent no 4,971,028 It is a passive solar collector panel that goes into sun facing glazing and turns a window into solar collector. It is my patent and if you need any more technical info on it I would be glad to supply it. They are just foam insulation, low tech, easy to build, cheap.
 
You do realize you are much like the Jehovah Witness...you claim to have the truth but can no way "prove" it....we can duel sources all day long but at the end of said day your position requires as much "faith" as theirs :)

You miss the commendable right thinking that boils down to "I don't give a rat's ass about anyone but me" and the repetitious media playing the music to that lyric. It is so much easier not to think and also profitable if you show your buzzwords to your management as you segue into a robust mode going forward. )hint: going forward implies that what you are doing is not the foundation for a future disaster( Using the buzzwords shows that your conditioning is working. My italics seem not to be going forward, if that worries you.
 
You do realize you are much like the Jehovah Witness...you claim to have the truth but can no way "prove" it....we can duel sources all day long but at the end of said day your position requires as much "faith" as theirs :)
Energy-2007
Usage/Misusage/Global Warming/Ice/Solutions

And you really don’t want to know. You could stop reading now. Did you know that the engines in most automobiles are just 25% efficient? Did you know that all of the heat in your home leaks into the atmosphere and inevitably heats that atmosphere? Diesels and turbines are 30% efficient. Why would we want to know about this? If I said we only actually use about 10-15% of all the energy of the petroleum and natural gas we distribute and we waste the remainder as lost heat to the atmosphere, would that surprise you? You could counter with, “This writer is a card carrying moron.” A statement alluding to such extreme waste would be an indictment of the status quo of energy distribution and use. That is the point. The giant energy companies know this and work hard to make sure you do not. Per usual, it is about the money. Enough surprises, let’s suck it up and look at the facts.
First step in energy distribution is finding the energy at its source. This uses lots of energy. Next we must develop the energy at its source. This uses lots of energy. Next we must transport the energy from its source to its user or in the case of oil to its refiner. If it is Natural Gas and used for heating, then all of the energy (BTUs) content of the natural gas, except the amount used for transportation, is lost as heat to the atmosphere. The energy used for transportation may be considered lost as well. Natural Gas destined for a gas turbine generator operating at 30% efficiency only loses 70% of the energy content (BTUs) to the atmosphere. In some instances a co-generation facility makes hot water for heating from the waste heat and that still escapes to heat the atmosphere. In the generation of electricity 5 KWH must be produced to deliver 4KWH to the end user incurring another loss. If you generate this electricity with a gas turbine, 70% of the energy content of the natural gas went out the exhaust as waste heat. That leaves 30% for KWH generated and 4 units out of 5 used (80% * 30%) leaving 24% of the potential energy actually used. We have allowed nothing for discovery, development, and transportation of the natural gas to the generation facility. More losses. These figures indicate that something much more than 30% of the energy content (BTUs) of all Natural Gas is not useful power but waste heat to the atmosphere. If 90% of the world’s Natural Gas is used for heating purposes, then only 10% produces useful power and the rest heats the atmosphere of the planet. That would be wasted energy and could conceivably cause other problems. Two readily apparent problems would be Global Warming and picking the pocket of the local end users, because the resource is not usually of local origination. Very profitable for the energy distribution network that could also be the status quo of big money and I am sure they like this system.
How about Oil? Similar story. Use energy to find a source. Use energy to develop a source. Use energy to transport (tankers, pipelines, trucks, etc.) the oil. First, transport it to a refinery and use energy to refine it, and then use more energy to transport the refined product to its end users (cars, trains, planes, turbines, heating units, etc.), and these end users will operate at 25-30% efficiency and waste the remaining energy content to the atmosphere as waste heat. We have a 70-75% heat loss before we add the energy lost in transporting twice, refining once, and pumping losses. Optimistically, we might use 15% of the Oil as shaft horsepower. That leaves 85% as lost heat to the atmosphere. The positive side to this is that 60 times more heat is lost to the atmosphere by natural gas than by Oil. Could all this waste heat be symptomatic of something? If I left the heat on in my home it would get too hot. If I leave the heat on in my planet’s atmosphere, will the planet get too hot? This is too simple! Why would anyone object to the dissemination of this kind of information? Would the status quo of energy distribution suffer financially if energy efficiency were a pre-eminent objective of the locals that are the purchasers and organized misusers of this energy? Why would humans in their right mind want such a flawed system to continue? Could it be about money? Would a National Energy Program that concentrated on end-user efficiency be logical?
A National program could create energy conservation/efficiency jobs at the local end-user level in all areas of the country (shades of Jimmy Carter). The dependence on foreign supplies of energy would be minimized and a comprehensive approach to Global Warming mitigation initiated. It is win-win for the people, but the status quo of big energy and the big energy distribution network will fight this tooth and nail and with a big dollar lobbying political move (buy some politicians) and a big dollar big media attack (buy conglomerate media outlets) attempting to ridicule the program. Keep in mind that “Money talks and bs walks.” Return to sentence 7, “If I said we only actually use about 10-15% of all the energy of the petroleum and natural gas we distribute and we waste the remainder as lost heat to the atmosphere, would that surprise you?” It is a fact and clearly indicates the future of energy use. Mine the wasted energy for reclaimed energy, because over 85% of the world’s energy is going out some exhaust stack or poorly insulated structure. Let’s talk about Global Warming.
The calculations and conclusions that follow are an attempt to correlate the effect of exhaust heat and/or waste heat resulting from the combustion of Petroleum products and Natural Gas. Examples are exhaust on cars, trains, planes, ships, turbines, furnaces, heating systems, etc. and reflect the general overall inefficiency of combustion devices. The total annual waste heat is calculated as a percentage compared to annual Solar Insolation upon the Earth’s surface and that percentage is concluded to affect the average of the Earth’s surface temperature linearly in the same proportion.
The consumption figures for Natural Gas are for 2004 and the Petroleum for 2005. They are actual worldwide data and one needs only to follow the links to verify their accuracy. Natural Gas contributes more than 60 times the waste heat that Petroleum produces, and in combination their total BTUs contribute slightly more than 2/10ths of one percent compared to annual solar insolation (measured at an absorption rate of 70%) that maintains the Earth’s average surface temperature at 14 C or 57.2 F. The assumption is made that if a finite amount of energy maintains a status quo temperature, then any additional percentage of energy input would increase the status quo temperature by that same percentage. The waste heat is the additional percentage of energy input. The calculated percentage of waste heat input is .224156%. In degrees Fahrenheit the waste heat contribution is .128 degrees in one year, or 1.28 degrees every ten years. Carbon Dioxide is not relative to this study. Most important numbers are labeled as KEY DATA in the body.
Although the combustion of Petroleum may create gases that likely increase the Greenhouse Effect, the heat component contributed by combustion of Natural Gas is the more serious problem. The melting of Polar ice may be producing a non-linearity because of the change of state (solid to liquid) which requires 8 times the energy input to achieve what normally occurs with a one degree change. After all the ice melts, the air temperature will rise more rapidly.

Petroleum Data-http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/international/iealf/tablec3.xls

Crude Oil-Average BTU per barrel worldwide = 6,000,000 btu/barrel
2005 Crude Oil consumption = 30 giga barrels = 30,000,000,000 barrel/year
BTUs from oil consumption = 6,000,000 * 30,000,000,000=180,000,000,000,000,000
Or 6*10^6 * 30*10^9 = 180*10^15BTUs
25% of BTUs to shaft horsepower, 75% lost as waste heat to atmosphere
180*10^15 * .75 (75% lost) = 135*10^15 BTUs lost as waste heat to atmosphere
KEY DATA
Natural Gas Data-http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/infosheets/natgasconsumption.html

Natural Gas-Average BTU per cubic foot = 1150 BTU/cubic foot
2004 Natural Gas consumption worldwide = 99.7 Tcf (trillion cubic feet)
BTUs from gas consumption = 99,700,000,000,000 * 1150 = 114,655,000,000,000,000
Or 99.7*10^12 * 1.15*10^3 = 11465.5*10^15BTUs
30% of BTUs to shaft horsepower, 70% lost as waste heat to atmosphere
11465.5*10^15 * .70 (70% lost) = 8025.85*10^15 BTUs lost as waste heat to atmosphere-KEY DATA
BTU calculations = Waste Heat from Oil and Natural gas consumption
Total BTUs lost to atmosphere = 135*10^15 + 8025.85*10^15=8160.85*10^15
Or 8.16085*10^18 BTUs lost to atmosphere annually-KEY DATA
Solar Insolation Data-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth's_energy_budget

solar radiation (99.978%, or nearly 174 petawatts; or about 340 W m-2)
174 petawatts conversion--174 * 10^15 watts = 593.72106 * 10^15 BTUs/hour
593.72106*10^15 * 24 * 365 = Annual Btus from Sun = 5200996.4856 * 10^15
Or 5.2009964856*10^21 BTUs Annual from the Sun. Only 70% absorbed, see below
5.2009964856 * 10^21 * .7 (70%) = 3.64069753992 * 10^21 BTUs Absorbed annually from the Sun-KEY DATA
The total power (BTUs) from waste Petro/Natural Gas heat divided by the total power (BTUs) absorbed annually from the sun would equal the percentage contribution of waste heat to total annual heat from the Sun. That calculation follows.-KEY DATA
8.16085*10^18 BTUs /3.64069753992 * 10^21 BTUs = 2.24156 * 10^-3 = .00224156
or .00224156 Petro/Natural Gas waste heat percentage contribution to annual BTUs. As a portion of the contribution to annual temperature, one would multiply the average annual temperature (14 C or 57.2 F @ 2.5% water vapor) times the waste heat percentage and conclude that product to be the amount of temperature rise (F) due to the waste heat only. The calculations follow.
57.2 * .00224156 = .128217358 degrees F increase per year.-KEY DATA 1.28 degrees F each 10 years (.128 * 10) CONCLUSION-Waste heat from combustion of Petroleum and Natural Gas can potentially contribute 1.28 degrees to Global Warming every ten years at present consumption/combustion rates. The non-linearity of heat absorption of ice/water needs to be addressed and clarified. The predictable temperature increases to be caused by Global Warming will not follow a linear pattern. Whether the increases are caused by carbon dioxide, heat, or natural cycles, their impact is mitigated by the change of state energy absorption of ice in the present and water in the future. Ice absorbs energy and increases in temperature linearly until it reaches 32 degrees and is still a solid. It requires 8 times the energy that was required to make a one (1) degree increase in temperature to change the state of the ice to a liquid without an increase in temperature. After the change of state the temperature will again increase predictably with a specific amount of energy until 212 degrees is reached and another change of state from liquid to gas occurs with the same non-linearity.
 
If you really have a passive solar house, look up Patent no 4,971,028 It is a passive solar collector panel that goes into sun facing glazing and turns a window into solar collector. It is my patent and if you need any more technical info on it I would be glad to supply it. They are just foam insulation, low tech, easy to build, cheap.

I looked it up, as well as the first 2 of 4 patents that are related....
Seems I read something in Mother Earth News decades ago about someone using auto type thermostats at 160 degree rating to do a similar thing. Makes sense to use a thermosat that closes in the cool of the evening, to prevent reverse action.

Our AZ house could use some passive cooling, not heating. But ground temp in the summer is hot enough to supply the house with hot water. We can shower using the cold tap only. Evap coolers work well here, except in July and August.

Our Utah house has a sunspace/kitchen/dining area with tile floors. When we leave for the winter, we leave the south facing window shades open, and set the thermostat at 50 Degrees. The gas heat (located in the basement, ducted to main floor and basement only) rarely comes on, based on gas bills. If we were there, it would be coming on at night. Plus, the basement has a concrete load bearing center wall, without insulation. Earth temperature at 7 feet below grade runs about 55 degrees in winter, and that wicks into that wall via footings and radiates out into the basement, and then the heated air rises to the upstairs. In summer, the basement is always cool, never getting above about 65 degrees. We only use AC a little, and all of it is delivered to the loft area
(900 sq. ft) and then cool air falls to the main floor, 1800 sq. ft..
Our HVAC contractor said we needed 2 large AC units, we get by with one smaller unit.
If everybody tried efficiency techniques, we would need fewer power plants....
 
Very pretty Dave, what are you going for there...and did you read what you posted?

Waste heat from combustion of Petroleum and Natural Gas can potentially contribute 1.28 degrees to Global Warming every ten years at present consumption/combustion rates.

Faith....

That leaves 85% as lost heat to the atmosphere. The positive side to this is that 60 times more heat is lost to the atmosphere by natural gas than by Oil. Could all this waste heat be symptomatic of something?

It could be...or it might not be......logical fallacy...

If I left the heat on in my home it would get too hot. If I leave the heat on in my planet’s atmosphere, will the planet get too hot?

Logical Fallacy ;)

Would a National Energy Program that concentrated on end-user efficiency be logical?
A National program could create energy conservation/efficiency jobs at the local end-user level in all areas of the country (shades of Jimmy Carter).


Who was worried about "Global Cooling"....

The assumption is made that if a finite amount of energy maintains a status quo temperature, then any additional percentage of energy input would increase the status quo temperature by that same percentage. The waste heat is the additional percentage of energy input. The calculated percentage of waste heat input is .224156%.

Assumptions = Faith.....

Although the combustion of Petroleum may create gases that likely increase the Greenhouse Effect

Faith...

The melting of Polar ice may be producing a non-linearity because of the change of state (solid to liquid) which requires 8 times the energy input to achieve what normally occurs with a one degree change. After all the ice melts, the air temperature will rise more rapidly.


Faith...assumptions....
 
Setting aside the global warming issue, except for this one thought, I prefer it over a new ice age......

WASTE HEAT is most certainly an issue in the energy delivery process. It has to be paid for, by the customers, who else?
Therefore, the financial expense of waste heat is an economics issue.
Wasted transportation fuels, from oil, are also a political issue. We send out young out to the middle east to "stablize the region", or in truth, to stablize the availability of oil.
It makes NO SENSE to waste energy when there are viable, and low tech, ways to use and waste LESS of it....
The thread is about oil. In the days of Jimmy Carter, a substantial percentage of our electricity was generated by the burning of bunker oil. Most of those plants are long gone. That much has been accomplished, thank you Mr. Carter.
Gasoline should be dyed red, to remind us every time we fill our tanks that many of our young have died ensuring that we have access to oil to maintain our lifestyle.
Surely we can reduce our lifestyle a little here and there to reduce the loss of young lives?
 
their minds are too distracted to know what is going on, so they pick a side of some issue and vote accordingly

vote obama, 2012---you're distracted!

they don't understand even the most basic tenets of economics

we know you can't spend more than you make, we know that if the federal budget isn't restructured now then the big 3 federal entitlements will not survive, we know what's going on in new york and illinois and michigan and indiana and maryland and wisconsin and ohio and jersey and california, as well as most nations in the eu

we know phsyics like gravity

as poor as I was growing up, we never lived that poor

who cares

why did candidate obama brag to the sf chron that his policies would bankrupt coal/electrical?

don't you find that, well, kinda strange?

as weird as his campaign slogans

oh well

party on, petrograd
 
By what incentive does the market have to find a solution? The world market is making record profits from the fact that demand exeeds supply. The price will continue to go up as we get closer and closer to world peak oil. As long as we are stupid enough to keep paying their prices rather than developing alternatives, they are happy to keep taking our money. Hell, we even fight their wars to keep us dependent on them longer.

The answer is simple...very simple....economics.

If the situation was truly as bad as the left prosthelytizes, then companies would be tripping over each other to find the next best thing (fuel source). Whomever created/invented this tech would create a global energy market that would eclipse overall oil revenues in a few years....not 20-30 years as some have suggested. However, since the world reserves are nowhere near depleted such deviation into a source market that has no 'real' value is quite simply a bad investment.
 
very pretty dave, what are you going for there...and did you read what you posted?

waste heat from combustion of petroleum and natural gas can potentially contribute 1.28 degrees to global warming every ten years at present consumption/combustion rates.

faith....
Noooo, math

that leaves 85% as lost heat to the atmosphere. The positive side to this is that 60 times more heat is lost to the atmosphere by natural gas than by oil. Could all this waste heat be symptomatic of something?

it could be...or it might not be......logical fallacy...
Not fallacious in any way, what is that heat going to do?

if i left the heat on in my home it would get too hot. If i leave the heat on in my planet’s atmosphere, will the planet get too hot?

logical fallacy ;)
analogy, fits like an old shoe! No fallacy

would a national energy program that concentrated on end-user efficiency be logical?
A national program could create energy conservation/efficiency jobs at the local end-user level in all areas of the country (shades of jimmy carter).


who was worried about "global cooling"....
Show me the link

the assumption is made that if a finite amount of energy maintains a status quo temperature, then any additional percentage of energy input would increase the status quo temperature by that same percentage. The waste heat is the additional percentage of energy input. The calculated percentage of waste heat input is .224156%.

assumptions = faith.....
You are saying when you turn up the thermostat in your home, it gets colder!

although the combustion of petroleum may create gases that likely increase the greenhouse effect

faith...
Nooo, just an acknowledgement the co2 is a secondary problem

the melting of polar ice may be producing a non-linearity because of the change of state (solid to liquid) which requires 8 times the energy input to achieve what normally occurs with a one degree change. After all the ice melts, the air temperature will rise more rapidly.


faith...assumptions....
Again, math , not faith

i didn't quote it, i wrote it. Normally it would not require line by line explanation. It isn't that complicated.
 
I speak the truth without pulling punches if that is what you mean.

No, I mean you are intentionally offensive. The man you picture, and laugh at is a working class individual that your lying party says that they support, but only if they vote for demo's eh? Other than that they can go **** themselves right?


Do you mean he has the freedom to get poorer while those he votes for get richer?

No, I mean that he lives in the only country in the world that offers the availibility of freedom to excell that this country does. Opprutunity that exists here are what draws peoples from all over the world to come here. Class warfare like what you childishly espouse here is only seen in libs that believe that they are due what someone else earned.

If he had the opportunity to make more in the free market he wouldn't be a trailer park republican now would he?

Who knows if he is a republican? Do you personally know the man? I'd be willling to bet that given the liberal propencity to lie, and misrepresent, that they, like the childish, crap think that the smear is somehow funny, in that Allensky sort of way, and made this up to riddicule. libs that are at this level are vapid of intellectual capability, and really don't deserve anything other than my pity.

j-mac
 
It figures....assumptions are faith dave....plain and simple.

You assume what you think is correct...it isn't.

We canplay the dueling source game all day...doesn't change a thing.

Gore is an idiot....Global Cooling didn't happen....

Acid Rain didn't end life as we know it...

...and the Population Bomb didn't explode.

Sorry.



i didn't quote it, i wrote it. Normally it would not require line by line explanation. It isn't that complicated.
 
Back
Top Bottom