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Thread: Oil rises above $90 amid US crude supply drop

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    Re: Oil rises above $90 amid US crude supply drop

    Ahhh well....catawba thinks anyone to the right of himself is an extremist...I am actually to ticks to Right of Center....Fiscal Conservative/Social Libertarian...but I don't have any use for the condesencion of either extreme....

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Fiber does for the body what extremist thinking does for the brain, fills it up with things that need to be flushed periodically.

    But from where I stand, the left does seem to be a bit better educated. I could be wrong, but all my far right neighbors seem awfully stupid. Maybe I just don't know enough extreme lefties.....
    Obama is NOT 50 feet tall, he is ONE inch deep.
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    Re: Oil rises above $90 amid US crude supply drop

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Fiber does for the body what extremist thinking does for the brain, fills it up with things that need to be flushed periodically.

    But from where I stand, the left does seem to be a bit better educated. I could be wrong, but all my far right neighbors seem awfully stupid. Maybe I just don't know enough extreme lefties.....
    You miss the commendable right thinking that boils down to "I don't give a rat's ass about anyone but me" and the repetitious media playing the music to that lyric. It is so much easier not to think and also profitable if you show your buzzwords to your management as you segue into a robust mode going forward. )hint: going forward implies that what you are doing is not the foundation for a future disaster( Using the buzzwords shows that your conditioning is working. My italics seem not to be going forward, if that worries you.

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    Re: Oil rises above $90 amid US crude supply drop

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    You miss the commendable right thinking that boils down to "I don't give a rat's ass about anyone but me" and the repetitious media playing the music to that lyric. It is so much easier not to think and also profitable if you show your buzzwords to your management as you segue into a robust mode going forward. )hint: going forward implies that what you are doing is not the foundation for a future disaster( Using the buzzwords shows that your conditioning is working. My italics seem not to be going forward, if that worries you.
    commendable? how so? or is that sarcasm? if not, don't explain, I no comprende jibberish.....

    As for "I don't give a rat's ass about anyone but me" , our Canadian friend on PGS, Red Green, says, "we're all in this together".....
    Oracle of Utah
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    Re: Oil rises above $90 amid US crude supply drop

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    My hybrid gets better mileage than your Harley and it was designed to burn ethynol (but I'm sure the oil companies appreciate the extra you chip in at the pump), and my energy bills for heating and cooling my passive solar house is about 40% of the costs for a conventional home.
    If you really have a passive solar house, look up Patent no 4,971,028 It is a passive solar collector panel that goes into sun facing glazing and turns a window into solar collector. It is my patent and if you need any more technical info on it I would be glad to supply it. They are just foam insulation, low tech, easy to build, cheap.

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    Re: Oil rises above $90 amid US crude supply drop

    You do realize you are much like the Jehovah Witness...you claim to have the truth but can no way "prove" it....we can duel sources all day long but at the end of said day your position requires as much "faith" as theirs

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    You miss the commendable right thinking that boils down to "I don't give a rat's ass about anyone but me" and the repetitious media playing the music to that lyric. It is so much easier not to think and also profitable if you show your buzzwords to your management as you segue into a robust mode going forward. )hint: going forward implies that what you are doing is not the foundation for a future disaster( Using the buzzwords shows that your conditioning is working. My italics seem not to be going forward, if that worries you.
    Obama is NOT 50 feet tall, he is ONE inch deep.
    Mark Levin

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    Re: Oil rises above $90 amid US crude supply drop

    Quote Originally Posted by Amazed View Post
    You do realize you are much like the Jehovah Witness...you claim to have the truth but can no way "prove" it....we can duel sources all day long but at the end of said day your position requires as much "faith" as theirs
    Energy-2007
    Usage/Misusage/Global Warming/Ice/Solutions

    And you really don’t want to know. You could stop reading now. Did you know that the engines in most automobiles are just 25% efficient? Did you know that all of the heat in your home leaks into the atmosphere and inevitably heats that atmosphere? Diesels and turbines are 30% efficient. Why would we want to know about this? If I said we only actually use about 10-15% of all the energy of the petroleum and natural gas we distribute and we waste the remainder as lost heat to the atmosphere, would that surprise you? You could counter with, “This writer is a card carrying moron.” A statement alluding to such extreme waste would be an indictment of the status quo of energy distribution and use. That is the point. The giant energy companies know this and work hard to make sure you do not. Per usual, it is about the money. Enough surprises, let’s suck it up and look at the facts.
    First step in energy distribution is finding the energy at its source. This uses lots of energy. Next we must develop the energy at its source. This uses lots of energy. Next we must transport the energy from its source to its user or in the case of oil to its refiner. If it is Natural Gas and used for heating, then all of the energy (BTUs) content of the natural gas, except the amount used for transportation, is lost as heat to the atmosphere. The energy used for transportation may be considered lost as well. Natural Gas destined for a gas turbine generator operating at 30% efficiency only loses 70% of the energy content (BTUs) to the atmosphere. In some instances a co-generation facility makes hot water for heating from the waste heat and that still escapes to heat the atmosphere. In the generation of electricity 5 KWH must be produced to deliver 4KWH to the end user incurring another loss. If you generate this electricity with a gas turbine, 70% of the energy content of the natural gas went out the exhaust as waste heat. That leaves 30% for KWH generated and 4 units out of 5 used (80% * 30%) leaving 24% of the potential energy actually used. We have allowed nothing for discovery, development, and transportation of the natural gas to the generation facility. More losses. These figures indicate that something much more than 30% of the energy content (BTUs) of all Natural Gas is not useful power but waste heat to the atmosphere. If 90% of the world’s Natural Gas is used for heating purposes, then only 10% produces useful power and the rest heats the atmosphere of the planet. That would be wasted energy and could conceivably cause other problems. Two readily apparent problems would be Global Warming and picking the pocket of the local end users, because the resource is not usually of local origination. Very profitable for the energy distribution network that could also be the status quo of big money and I am sure they like this system.
    How about Oil? Similar story. Use energy to find a source. Use energy to develop a source. Use energy to transport (tankers, pipelines, trucks, etc.) the oil. First, transport it to a refinery and use energy to refine it, and then use more energy to transport the refined product to its end users (cars, trains, planes, turbines, heating units, etc.), and these end users will operate at 25-30% efficiency and waste the remaining energy content to the atmosphere as waste heat. We have a 70-75% heat loss before we add the energy lost in transporting twice, refining once, and pumping losses. Optimistically, we might use 15% of the Oil as shaft horsepower. That leaves 85% as lost heat to the atmosphere. The positive side to this is that 60 times more heat is lost to the atmosphere by natural gas than by Oil. Could all this waste heat be symptomatic of something? If I left the heat on in my home it would get too hot. If I leave the heat on in my planet’s atmosphere, will the planet get too hot? This is too simple! Why would anyone object to the dissemination of this kind of information? Would the status quo of energy distribution suffer financially if energy efficiency were a pre-eminent objective of the locals that are the purchasers and organized misusers of this energy? Why would humans in their right mind want such a flawed system to continue? Could it be about money? Would a National Energy Program that concentrated on end-user efficiency be logical?
    A National program could create energy conservation/efficiency jobs at the local end-user level in all areas of the country (shades of Jimmy Carter). The dependence on foreign supplies of energy would be minimized and a comprehensive approach to Global Warming mitigation initiated. It is win-win for the people, but the status quo of big energy and the big energy distribution network will fight this tooth and nail and with a big dollar lobbying political move (buy some politicians) and a big dollar big media attack (buy conglomerate media outlets) attempting to ridicule the program. Keep in mind that “Money talks and bs walks.” Return to sentence 7, “If I said we only actually use about 10-15% of all the energy of the petroleum and natural gas we distribute and we waste the remainder as lost heat to the atmosphere, would that surprise you?” It is a fact and clearly indicates the future of energy use. Mine the wasted energy for reclaimed energy, because over 85% of the world’s energy is going out some exhaust stack or poorly insulated structure. Let’s talk about Global Warming.
    The calculations and conclusions that follow are an attempt to correlate the effect of exhaust heat and/or waste heat resulting from the combustion of Petroleum products and Natural Gas. Examples are exhaust on cars, trains, planes, ships, turbines, furnaces, heating systems, etc. and reflect the general overall inefficiency of combustion devices. The total annual waste heat is calculated as a percentage compared to annual Solar Insolation upon the Earth’s surface and that percentage is concluded to affect the average of the Earth’s surface temperature linearly in the same proportion.
    The consumption figures for Natural Gas are for 2004 and the Petroleum for 2005. They are actual worldwide data and one needs only to follow the links to verify their accuracy. Natural Gas contributes more than 60 times the waste heat that Petroleum produces, and in combination their total BTUs contribute slightly more than 2/10ths of one percent compared to annual solar insolation (measured at an absorption rate of 70%) that maintains the Earth’s average surface temperature at 14 C or 57.2 F. The assumption is made that if a finite amount of energy maintains a status quo temperature, then any additional percentage of energy input would increase the status quo temperature by that same percentage. The waste heat is the additional percentage of energy input. The calculated percentage of waste heat input is .224156%. In degrees Fahrenheit the waste heat contribution is .128 degrees in one year, or 1.28 degrees every ten years. Carbon Dioxide is not relative to this study. Most important numbers are labeled as KEY DATA in the body.
    Although the combustion of Petroleum may create gases that likely increase the Greenhouse Effect, the heat component contributed by combustion of Natural Gas is the more serious problem. The melting of Polar ice may be producing a non-linearity because of the change of state (solid to liquid) which requires 8 times the energy input to achieve what normally occurs with a one degree change. After all the ice melts, the air temperature will rise more rapidly.

    Petroleum Data-http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/international/iealf/tablec3.xls

    Crude Oil-Average BTU per barrel worldwide = 6,000,000 btu/barrel
    2005 Crude Oil consumption = 30 giga barrels = 30,000,000,000 barrel/year
    BTUs from oil consumption = 6,000,000 * 30,000,000,000=180,000,000,000,000,000
    Or 6*10^6 * 30*10^9 = 180*10^15BTUs
    25% of BTUs to shaft horsepower, 75% lost as waste heat to atmosphere
    180*10^15 * .75 (75% lost) = 135*10^15 BTUs lost as waste heat to atmosphere
    KEY DATA
    Natural Gas Data-http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/infosheets/natgasconsumption.html

    Natural Gas-Average BTU per cubic foot = 1150 BTU/cubic foot
    2004 Natural Gas consumption worldwide = 99.7 Tcf (trillion cubic feet)
    BTUs from gas consumption = 99,700,000,000,000 * 1150 = 114,655,000,000,000,000
    Or 99.7*10^12 * 1.15*10^3 = 11465.5*10^15BTUs
    30% of BTUs to shaft horsepower, 70% lost as waste heat to atmosphere
    11465.5*10^15 * .70 (70% lost) = 8025.85*10^15 BTUs lost as waste heat to atmosphere-KEY DATA
    BTU calculations = Waste Heat from Oil and Natural gas consumption
    Total BTUs lost to atmosphere = 135*10^15 + 8025.85*10^15=8160.85*10^15
    Or 8.16085*10^18 BTUs lost to atmosphere annually-KEY DATA
    Solar Insolation Data-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth's_energy_budget

    solar radiation (99.978%, or nearly 174 petawatts; or about 340 W m-2)
    174 petawatts conversion--174 * 10^15 watts = 593.72106 * 10^15 BTUs/hour
    593.72106*10^15 * 24 * 365 = Annual Btus from Sun = 5200996.4856 * 10^15
    Or 5.2009964856*10^21 BTUs Annual from the Sun. Only 70% absorbed, see below
    5.2009964856 * 10^21 * .7 (70%) = 3.64069753992 * 10^21 BTUs Absorbed annually from the Sun-KEY DATA
    The total power (BTUs) from waste Petro/Natural Gas heat divided by the total power (BTUs) absorbed annually from the sun would equal the percentage contribution of waste heat to total annual heat from the Sun. That calculation follows.-KEY DATA
    8.16085*10^18 BTUs /3.64069753992 * 10^21 BTUs = 2.24156 * 10^-3 = .00224156
    or .00224156 Petro/Natural Gas waste heat percentage contribution to annual BTUs. As a portion of the contribution to annual temperature, one would multiply the average annual temperature (14 C or 57.2 F @ 2.5% water vapor) times the waste heat percentage and conclude that product to be the amount of temperature rise (F) due to the waste heat only. The calculations follow.
    57.2 * .00224156 = .128217358 degrees F increase per year.-KEY DATA 1.28 degrees F each 10 years (.128 * 10) CONCLUSION-Waste heat from combustion of Petroleum and Natural Gas can potentially contribute 1.28 degrees to Global Warming every ten years at present consumption/combustion rates. The non-linearity of heat absorption of ice/water needs to be addressed and clarified. The predictable temperature increases to be caused by Global Warming will not follow a linear pattern. Whether the increases are caused by carbon dioxide, heat, or natural cycles, their impact is mitigated by the change of state energy absorption of ice in the present and water in the future. Ice absorbs energy and increases in temperature linearly until it reaches 32 degrees and is still a solid. It requires 8 times the energy that was required to make a one (1) degree increase in temperature to change the state of the ice to a liquid without an increase in temperature. After the change of state the temperature will again increase predictably with a specific amount of energy until 212 degrees is reached and another change of state from liquid to gas occurs with the same non-linearity.

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    Re: Oil rises above $90 amid US crude supply drop

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    If you really have a passive solar house, look up Patent no 4,971,028 It is a passive solar collector panel that goes into sun facing glazing and turns a window into solar collector. It is my patent and if you need any more technical info on it I would be glad to supply it. They are just foam insulation, low tech, easy to build, cheap.
    I looked it up, as well as the first 2 of 4 patents that are related....
    Seems I read something in Mother Earth News decades ago about someone using auto type thermostats at 160 degree rating to do a similar thing. Makes sense to use a thermosat that closes in the cool of the evening, to prevent reverse action.

    Our AZ house could use some passive cooling, not heating. But ground temp in the summer is hot enough to supply the house with hot water. We can shower using the cold tap only. Evap coolers work well here, except in July and August.

    Our Utah house has a sunspace/kitchen/dining area with tile floors. When we leave for the winter, we leave the south facing window shades open, and set the thermostat at 50 Degrees. The gas heat (located in the basement, ducted to main floor and basement only) rarely comes on, based on gas bills. If we were there, it would be coming on at night. Plus, the basement has a concrete load bearing center wall, without insulation. Earth temperature at 7 feet below grade runs about 55 degrees in winter, and that wicks into that wall via footings and radiates out into the basement, and then the heated air rises to the upstairs. In summer, the basement is always cool, never getting above about 65 degrees. We only use AC a little, and all of it is delivered to the loft area
    (900 sq. ft) and then cool air falls to the main floor, 1800 sq. ft..
    Our HVAC contractor said we needed 2 large AC units, we get by with one smaller unit.
    If everybody tried efficiency techniques, we would need fewer power plants....
    Oracle of Utah
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    Re: Oil rises above $90 amid US crude supply drop

    Very pretty Dave, what are you going for there...and did you read what you posted?

    Waste heat from combustion of Petroleum and Natural Gas can potentially contribute 1.28 degrees to Global Warming every ten years at present consumption/combustion rates.

    Faith....

    That leaves 85% as lost heat to the atmosphere. The positive side to this is that 60 times more heat is lost to the atmosphere by natural gas than by Oil. Could all this waste heat be symptomatic of something?

    It could be...or it might not be......logical fallacy...

    If I left the heat on in my home it would get too hot. If I leave the heat on in my planet’s atmosphere, will the planet get too hot?

    Logical Fallacy

    Would a National Energy Program that concentrated on end-user efficiency be logical?
    A National program could create energy conservation/efficiency jobs at the local end-user level in all areas of the country (shades of Jimmy Carter).


    Who was worried about "Global Cooling"....

    The assumption is made that if a finite amount of energy maintains a status quo temperature, then any additional percentage of energy input would increase the status quo temperature by that same percentage. The waste heat is the additional percentage of energy input. The calculated percentage of waste heat input is .224156%.

    Assumptions = Faith.....

    Although the combustion of Petroleum may create gases that likely increase the Greenhouse Effect

    Faith...

    The melting of Polar ice may be producing a non-linearity because of the change of state (solid to liquid) which requires 8 times the energy input to achieve what normally occurs with a one degree change. After all the ice melts, the air temperature will rise more rapidly.


    Faith...assumptions....
    Obama is NOT 50 feet tall, he is ONE inch deep.
    Mark Levin

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    Re: Oil rises above $90 amid US crude supply drop

    Setting aside the global warming issue, except for this one thought, I prefer it over a new ice age......

    WASTE HEAT is most certainly an issue in the energy delivery process. It has to be paid for, by the customers, who else?
    Therefore, the financial expense of waste heat is an economics issue.
    Wasted transportation fuels, from oil, are also a political issue. We send out young out to the middle east to "stablize the region", or in truth, to stablize the availability of oil.
    It makes NO SENSE to waste energy when there are viable, and low tech, ways to use and waste LESS of it....
    The thread is about oil. In the days of Jimmy Carter, a substantial percentage of our electricity was generated by the burning of bunker oil. Most of those plants are long gone. That much has been accomplished, thank you Mr. Carter.
    Gasoline should be dyed red, to remind us every time we fill our tanks that many of our young have died ensuring that we have access to oil to maintain our lifestyle.
    Surely we can reduce our lifestyle a little here and there to reduce the loss of young lives?
    Oracle of Utah
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    Re: Oil rises above $90 amid US crude supply drop

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    their minds are too distracted to know what is going on, so they pick a side of some issue and vote accordingly
    vote obama, 2012---you're distracted!

    they don't understand even the most basic tenets of economics
    we know you can't spend more than you make, we know that if the federal budget isn't restructured now then the big 3 federal entitlements will not survive, we know what's going on in new york and illinois and michigan and indiana and maryland and wisconsin and ohio and jersey and california, as well as most nations in the eu

    we know phsyics like gravity

    as poor as I was growing up, we never lived that poor
    who cares

    why did candidate obama brag to the sf chron that his policies would bankrupt coal/electrical?

    don't you find that, well, kinda strange?

    as weird as his campaign slogans

    oh well

    party on, petrograd

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