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150 years later, S. Carolina celebration sparks new Civil War

Erod said:
One thing at a time. You've got your hands full with the Austerity issues at the moment.
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I suppose it must make Conservatives and some Christians feel special if they have deluded themselves into thinking that Muslims are specifically after them.

Newsflash sweetheart. You are not worth Muslims time or effort.
But I suppose it must give some Christians a thrill in thinking that somehow they are under attack from something other than secularism and atheists.
 
Le Marteau said:
No. I take a hard stance on the States, because of their bizarre slip backwards into ultra-conservative backwater mentality -- that's plain and simple.

What is fomented in the imaginations of "hardcore American nationalists" is the idea that I have nothing good to say about the States, ever, by merit of being a Eurosocialist baby-killing commie Muslim Imperialist genocidal push-over, to put it succinctly.

Don't believe the last statement? Albert di Salvo, how do you feel about Europeans? Or shall I drag up your old posts?

XD
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Asians good. Euro Peons bad. How's that for clarity?
 
Harshaw said:
Weak. You never made such qualifications before; I certainly never said any of that about you, even after you said I want to nuke the entire world.

As for the "commie" bit, I suspect you chose the hammer and sickle as your avatar specifically to elicit that comment.
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I make the qualifications now -- and there is nothing to contradict those qualifications.

Furthermore, when did I say you wanted to nuke the world? That seems a bit harsh, and I'm fairly certain I would not assume such unless directly stated. So find some evidence.

As for the "commie" bit, I chose the hammer and sickle as my avatar because I lived in the Soviet Union, as well as several other countries, over the course of my life time, and I know first-hand that socialism is progress. That said, the Soviet Union was unfortunately unable to attain the socialist ideal -- there were many good things about the Soviet Union, and many bad things.

I keep the hammer and sickle as my avatar as a symbol of hope, and of heritage.
 
Erod said:
Well, I certainly hope not. The eastern bloc countries are at least reliable these days, and I have great hope sanity will return westward. Germany is coming around politically, as is Spain. And recent elections are encouraging in England, although was constitutes as "conservative" today in England is stilted at best.
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The Euro economic, political, social and military model is collapsing. Avoid them.
 
Le Marteau said:
I make the qualifications now -- and there is nothing to contradict those qualifications.
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Except that you've said it of me when I've pointed out your, er, "harsh stance" and I never said antyhing like that.


Furthermore, when did I say you wanted to nuke the world? That seems a bit harsh, and I'm fairly certain I would not assume such unless directly stated. So find some evidence.
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Here you go -- you going bat****. Don't know why the thread was closed.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/85487-nuclear-disarmament-good-idea-7.html#post1059099968


As for the "commie" bit, I chose the hammer and sickle as my avatar because I lived in the Soviet Union, as well as several other countries, over the course of my life time, and I know first-hand that socialism is progress. That said, the Soviet Union was unfortunately unable to attain the socialist ideal -- there were many good things about the Soviet Union, and many bad things.

I keep the hammer and sickle as my avatar as a symbol of hope, and of heritage.
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Then perhaps you shouldn't be so surprised and offended that someone might call you a "commie."
 
Laila said:
I suppose it must make Conservatives and some Christians feel special if they have deluded themselves into thinking that Muslims are specifically after them.

Newsflash sweetheart. You are not worth Muslims time or effort.
But I suppose it must give some Christians a thrill in thinking that somehow they are under attack from something other than secularism and atheists.
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Perhaps it's the hundreds and hundreds of terrorist attacks around the world. The percentage of Islam engaged in this extremity is disturbingly high, and many of them are among you right there in London.

Apparently, with the numerous attempts in the U.S. in recent months, all of which were Muslim, we ARE worth the time and effort.
 
Moderator's Warning:
This thread isn't about Muslims, Europe, terrorism, or individual posters' lunar viewing habits. Stick to the topic, or at least something halfway related to it, or start a new thread.
 
danarhea said:
That's right, folks. South Carolina, the first state to secede from the Union, is having a ball to commemorate that event. What are they celebrating? Slavery? An act that led to the deaths of over half a million people? They say no:



and what did they have the courage and integrity to do that was right? Let's take a look at the South Carolina Declaration of Secession.



And there you have it, folks. The courage and integrity to do what was right, according to South Carolina, was to fight for the institution of slavery. Don't take my word for it. This is in the words of the very people who penned South Carolina's Articles of Secession.

In my own honest opinion, this is one of the dumbest and most immoral events that you could possibly celebrate. What do we celebrate next? Lynchings of blacks who demanded their Constitutional right to vote?

Article is here.
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I am just shocked that McClatchy doesn't think enough of SC to actually write a non biased story, but rather use one ball in Charleston attended by a relative few, to smear an entire state. I guess I should expect that out of what used to be Knight Ridder, one of the most slanted rags on the market.

But you Dana? come on man, are you really going to paint an entire state with this dumb crap?


j-mac
 
Harshaw said:
This is vapid.

The governments under which these soldiers served said they were separating themselves from the Union to preserve slavery. They, the governments, said so.

The US government said nothing about oil in Iraq, nothing about the drug trade in Vietnam, nothing, zip, nada. It wasn't their mission. Never was.

But preserving slavery was cited as a reason for separating from the Union. Officially, unquestionably, in writing. To DENY it is bull****.
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They, the People, voted in state wide referendums to go ahead with secession. Most--if not all--of the soldiers in the Confederate Army voted in those referendums.

That being an historical fact, you're going to have a helluva time supporting the argument that secession was approved of by the people just to preserve slavery.

It's plum silly to insist that southerners, willingly and knowingly voted to secede strictly to allow .5% of the southern population to keep their slaves. Some states passed with numbers as high as 89%. All those people voted for secession, knowing that it would lead to war, then volunteered to fight in that war, for no other reason than to allow rich folks to keep their slaves? There's no argument, nor documentation that you could ever produce that could even come close to proving that.
 
Harshaw said:
What's more, what does citing what the southern states seceded for have to do with "bull****" reasons American soldiers were said to have done things? You imply I'm being disrespectful to American soldiers by saying so.

Funny, but my loyalty and allegiance is in fact to the UNITED States of America, not the rebellious and rightly-defeated CONFEDERATE States of America. What I say about the reasons for secession has no reflection whatsoever on what I believe or "would" believe about the missions of American troops. I owe no loyalty or respect to the seceding states, AT ALL.
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That's a totally different argument. I never said that the south was right, or that secession was a good idea--except to say that, without secession and the Civil War, slavery would have lasted into the 20th Century. Nor, did I ever express any disappointment in the south's defeat. Actaully, I think it's good that the good ol' USA won that fight.
 
Le Marteau said:
As I recall, Canada has kicked your arse in two wars, and they may well do it again if all this 51st state rubbish doesn't stop. XD
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Which two wars would those be?

As well, as a point of historical accuracy, I refuse to give the credit to an independent US to anyone but the French -- they're the ones you really ought to be thanking.
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Another point of historical accuracy, The American Revolution is the closest the French have ever come to actually winning a war.
 
apdst said:
They, the People, voted in state wide referendums to go ahead with secession. Most--if not all--of the soldiers in the Confederate Army voted in those referendums.

That being an historical fact, you're going to have a helluva time supporting the argument that secession was approved of by the people just to preserve slavery.

It's plum silly to insist that southerners, willingly and knowingly voted to secede strictly to allow .5% of the southern population to keep their slaves. Some states passed with numbers as high as 89%. All those people voted for secession, knowing that it would lead to war, then volunteered to fight in that war, for no other reason than to allow rich folks to keep their slaves? There's no argument, nor documentation that you could ever produce that could even come close to proving that.
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Siiiiiiigh.

Why do you keep arguing about things I didn't say? Read, dude. Read.
 
apdst said:
That's a totally different argument. I never said that the south was right, or that secession was a good idea--except to say that, without secession and the Civil War, slavery would have lasted into the 20th Century. Nor, did I ever express any disappointment in the south's defeat. Actaully, I think it's good that the good ol' USA won that fight.
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Then what's all the bull**** about "believing" things about American soldiers and their missions?

And what's with the kneejerk, reflexive screeching against anyone who might suggest that slavery played some role in the reasons for secession?

Are you claiming, here and now, that slavery played NO role? As in, it was not a factor, period, in secession? Is that what you're claiming?

If so, you're making a stupid and ludicrous argument. If not, then back off.
 
Harshaw said:
Siiiiiiigh.

Why do you keep arguing about things I didn't say? Read, dude. Read.
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Things you didn't say? You said, and allow me to quote you,

The governments under which these soldiers served said they were separating themselves from the Union to preserve slavery. They, the governments, said so.
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You said that the government was the only dtermining body that decided to secede. Yes? That is not the case, sir.
 
Harshaw said:
Then what's all the bull**** about "believing" things about American soldiers and their missions?

And what's with the kneejerk, reflexive screeching against anyone who might suggest that slavery played some role in the reasons for secession?

Are you claiming, here and now, that slavery played NO role? As in, it was not a factor, period, in secession? Is that what you're claiming?

If so, you're making a stupid and ludicrous argument. If not, then back off.
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Nope! Never said that. Never even came close to suggesting, even sorta.

My argument is that slavery wasn't the only reason that the south seceded. Your argument is that slavery is the only reason for secession. Isn't that right?
 
apdst said:
Nope! Never said that. Never even came close to suggesting, even sorta.

My argument is that slavery wasn't the only reason that the south seceded. Your argument is that slavery is the only reason for secession. Isn't that right?
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Nope. Not being a moron, I understand that there's no single reason for anything. I said what I said because there are many who will indeed argue that secession had nothing to do with slavery.

I do say that it was one of the primary reasons, however.
 
Harshaw said:
Nope. Not being a moron, I understand that there's no single reason for anything. I said what I said because there are many who will indeed argue that secession had nothing to do with slavery.

I do say that it was one of the primary reasons, however.
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So, you back down from your contention that the preservation of slavery was the only reason that secession happened?
 
apdst said:
So, you back down from your contention that the preservation of slavery was the only reason that secession happened?
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Sweet Christ. What's your problem? Read what I wrote. I never had that contention, not ever. Why do you need so badly for me to have done so?

You know what? Forget it. I don't care.
 
hazlnut said:
I think the 4 in 10 Americans that believe in strict creationism must live in S.C.
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Was it this statement that did it? [temp suspended]
 
apdst said:
So, you back down from your contention that the preservation of slavery was the only reason that secession happened?
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Please stop pretending that people are saying it's the only reason when they clearly aren't.

I know you wish they said that, but they didn't.
 
Harshaw said:
Sweet Christ. What's your problem? Read what I wrote. I never had that contention, not ever. Why do you need so badly for me to have done so?

You know what? Forget it. I don't care.
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He's done this crap with me and others and had it pointed out to him. I think he's just being a troll.
 
Harshaw said:
Sweet Christ. What's your problem? Read what I wrote. I never had that contention, not ever. Why do you need so badly for me to have done so?

You know what? Forget it. I don't care.
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You said,

Harshaw said:
Yes, and there are those who will argue, red-faced, that secession wasn't about slavery, but some other noble purpose. Yet almost every article of secession cited slavery specifically.
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Then, you said,


Harshaw said:
You're conflating different issues.

I said most of the articles secession cited slavery, and indeed, they did; it was forefront issue FOR secession.

I don't give a rat's ass what was in the mind of an ordinary soldier; he didn't make the decisions which put him in the fight.

I also didn't say a thing about what the Civil War was fought over; that was about preservation of the Union. That's an entirely different topic from why the southern states seceded.

And they seceded to preserve slavery. They said so themselves.
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After that, you said,


Harshaw said:
This is vapid.

The governments under which these soldiers served said they were separating themselves from the Union to preserve slavery. They, the governments, said so.

The US government said nothing about oil in Iraq, nothing about the drug trade in Vietnam, nothing, zip, nada. It wasn't their mission. Never was.

But preserving slavery was cited as a reason for separating from the Union. Officially, unquestionably, in writing. To DENY it is bull****.
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If you ever suggested that slavery wasn't the number one reason for secession, I would love to see it.
 
independent_thinker2002 said:
Please stop pretending that people are saying it's the only reason when they clearly aren't.

I know you wish they said that, but they didn't.
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Ok, tell us what the other reasons were. Go ahead, feel free. Thanks in advance.
 
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