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Lawyers cry foul over leak of Julian Assange sex-case papers

Redress said:
The concept that confidential documents should be released with no oversite is not sound.
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As asked by Khayembii...what do you mean by "oversight"? So far as I can tell there is no oversight. Things seem to be classified "just because".

Redress said:
Two problems with this. First is that nothing Assange is doing has anything to do with changing how papers are classified. Second is that you are admitting they are different to say they are the same, which makes no sense.
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Assaunge wants more transparency in governments. So yeah...I would have to say that what he is doing is about changing how papers are classified. Of course they are different. One is a war, the other is about transparency. But they are both about freedom.

Redress said:
Whether the war is winnable or not is a matter of opinion at this point. Neither of us can see the future. However, one is a direct attempt to make the US more secure, and one is a direct attempt to make the US less secure. I wonder which is better....
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Don't need to be a fortune teller (or a stratigist) to know that war breeds hate. Especially towards the invader. So yeah, I can safely say that the War on Terror is a failed war. You don't fight terror with more terror. As for making the US less secure...There was nothing in those cables that was so important as to make or break any of our policies with any country.
 
Kal'Stang said:
As asked by Khayembii...what do you mean by "oversight"? So far as I can tell there is no oversight. Things seem to be classified "just because".
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I know that is not true. It may seem like that to you, but in my experience that is NOT the case.


Assaunge wants more transparency in governments. So yeah...I would have to say that what he is doing is about changing how papers are classified. Of course they are different. One is a war, the other is about transparency. But they are both about freedom.
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Wrong again, his own stated goals are to damage relations with networks between countries, in an anti war agenda.

Don't need to be a fortune teller (or a stratigist) to know that war breeds hate. Especially towards the invader. So yeah, I can safely say that the War on Terror is a failed war. You don't fight terror with more terror. As for making the US less secure...There was nothing in those cables that was so important as to make or break any of our policies with any country.
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And the trifecta of wrongness. Has what has happened caused countries to be more careful in what, and how they communicate with the US?


j-mac
 
j-mac said:
I know that is not true. It may seem like that to you, but in my experience that is NOT the case.
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Great! Since you say that you are more experienced then perhaps you can enlighten the rest of us as to what oversight there is when it comes to classifying documents. What government agency does this? Are they open about what policies they use to determine whether something should be classified or not? What are the procedures and criteria?


j-mac said:
Wrong again, his own stated goals are to damage relations with networks between countries, in an anti war agenda.
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Really?

Publishing improves transparency, and this transparency creates a better society for all people. Better scrutiny leads to reduced corruption and stronger democracies in all society’s institutions, including government, corporations and other organisations. A healthy, vibrant and inquisitive journalistic media plays a vital role in achieving these goals. We are part of that media.
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Wikileaks about page

Sure don't sound like it to me.

j-mac said:
And the trifecta of wrongness. Has what has happened caused countries to be more careful in what, and how they communicate with the US?


j-mac
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On a civilian level, nope. On a governmental level? No idea. I'm not privy to those types of discussions, much less all of them in order to see if there has been an effect. Are you?
 
Kal'Stang said:
Great! Since you say that you are more experienced then perhaps you can enlighten the rest of us as to what oversight there is when it comes to classifying documents. What government agency does this? Are they open about what policies they use to determine whether something should be classified or not? What are the procedures and criteria?
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Here is a good starting place: Classified information in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes, there are procedures. Yes, it can be abused. Yes, it is still better than anarchy, which is all assholes like Assange offer.

Really?



Wikileaks about page

Sure don't sound like it to me.
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You might read some of his interviews. he is something of a publicity hound, so you should be able to find them almost as easily as the procedure for classifying material. Maybe easier.

On a civilian level, nope. On a governmental level? No idea. I'm not privy to those types of discussions, much less all of them in order to see if there has been an effect. Are you?
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Take a guess. I think it is not hard to guess the right answer in this case. It's not the end of the world, but it is damaging to the US.
 
Redress said:
Yes, there are procedures. Yes, it can be abused. Yes, it is still better than anarchy, which is all assholes like Assange offer.
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Let me ask you a question. Would it really matter what Assaunge's personal goals might be? Would you think any different if his goals were entirely about nothing but trying to make the world a better place?
 
Kal'Stang said:
Let me ask you a question. Would it really matter what Assaunge's personal goals might be? Would you think any different if his goals were entirely about nothing but trying to make the world a better place?
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None. His motives are secondary at best. The fact he is making the world a worse place in my opinion is a more important one. The fact he is making the military and diplomatic efforts of my country harder is a more important one. The fact that his efforts may put good people at additional risk is a more important one.
 
Redress said:
None. His motives are secondary at best. The fact he is making the world a worse place in my opinion is a more important one. The fact he is making the military and diplomatic efforts of my country harder is a more important one. The fact that his efforts may put good people at additional risk is a more important one.
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So why keep talking about em?

As for your opinions...all of them have yet to be proven worth worrying about. As Eric Holder (I think it was him) said "The US is too big to be ignored" Or words to that effect anyways.
 
Kal'Stang said:
So why keep talking about em?

As for your opinions...all of them have yet to be proven worth worrying about. As Eric Holder (I think it was him) said "The US is too big to be ignored" Or words to that effect anyways.
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Because they keep getting brought up.

I think you are thinking of Gates, not Holder, and he also admitted the cable release was harmful, just not the end of the world.
 
Redress said:
Because they keep getting brought up.
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I don't recall ever bringing it up. *shrugs*

Redress said:
I think you are thinking of Gates, not Holder, and he also admitted the cable release was harmful, just not the end of the world.
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I would like to know the extent of the harm that so many says there is. Unfortenately there is no way to tell and we certainly won't be told the exact extent by our government.
 
justabubba said:
point them out
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Really? You can't figure this out yourself? OK.

Fearmongering that WikiLeaks revelations will result in deaths
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The claim is that the leaks could result in deaths and puts people at risk.

Spreading the lie that WikiLeaks posted all the cables
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Trivial point and had never heard any one claim they had released all the cables.

Falsely claiming that Assange has committed a crime regarding WikiLeaks.
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Hey, at least some do claim this. Mostly though we say that it is being looked into. It is, at this time, unknown if he will be charged with any crimes in the US. Better, but still only arguing against a very few.

Denying that WikiLeaks is a journalistic enterprise
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Hey, they got one right, and if charges are filed, it will end up being the supreme court that decides whether they are or not. To my mind, they are not, they are a blog, so at least it is not a straw man.

Denying a link between Ellsberg's Pentagon Papers and WikiLeaks, despite Ellsberg's support of the site.
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Link would be a very strong term, but there is certainly a comparison, and no one is denying it. Ellsberg's support in no way makes or does not make the claim(it's entirely irrelevant), which shows you how shoddy the logic is at the site you linked to. This is basically a straw man.

Accusing Assange of profiting from WikiLeaks
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Again, had not heard this till I saw your source. No one really is claiming it.

Calling Assange a terrorist.
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What, a dozen people have called him this. Pure strawman.

Minimizing the significance of the cables
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Again, no one is saying this. What is being said is it is not end of the world stuff, and mostly stuff suspected or known.

So out of the 8, maybe 3 are not straw men, and those have other issues with them, with the only exception that some are claiming he is not a journalist. One out of eight ain't bad?
 
Kal'Stang said:
Out of curiosity..do you know the difference between personal privacy and a government that is suppose to be controlled by the public?
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Government controlled by the public = government controlled by the government.

Do you believe in "we the people"?
 
Considering Assange has stated his goals are the overthrow of Governments he dislikes...

And that he WITH HOLDS information that furthers his agenda...

The best solution is to try any US Citizen that releases to his group information as Traitors (that generally comes with the DP btw) and to label him a Terrorist, wanted Dead or Alive.

Solve a LOT of problems.
 
GPS_Flex said:
Government controlled by the public = government controlled by the government.

Do you believe in "we the people"?
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The government can certainly be controlled by the government, with the consent and oversight of the people.

And yep, I do believe in "we the people". But "we the people" does not mean "we that are in the government".
 
MrVicchio said:
Considering Assange has stated his goals are the overthrow of Governments he dislikes...

And that he WITH HOLDS information that furthers his agenda...

The best solution is to try any US Citizen that releases to his group information as Traitors (that generally comes with the DP btw) and to label him a Terrorist, wanted Dead or Alive.

Solve a LOT of problems.
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Funny how before this latest batch of cables that was released by wikileaks no one ever said crap about Assaunge...much less called for his head. Despite the fact that wikileaks has been around for several years releasing information about mainly other countries. Guess its ok when they're doing the same thing to other countries...but the moment they turn their attention towards something you care about? OFF WITH HIS HEAD!
 
Kal'Stang said:
Funny how before this latest batch of cables that was released by wikileaks no one ever said crap about Assaunge...much less called for his head. Despite the fact that wikileaks has been around for several years releasing information about mainly other countries. Guess its ok when they're doing the same thing to other countries...but the moment they turn their attention towards something you care about? OFF WITH HIS HEAD!
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A: I hadn't really heard of wikileaks prior to the big release of data earlier in 2010.

B: Off with his head I say. Other countries are free to apply applicable punishment on their traitors.

C: If I don't hear about something, how am I supposed to comment on it?
 
Kal'Stang said:
Funny how before this latest batch of cables that was released by wikileaks no one ever said crap about Assaunge...much less called for his head. Despite the fact that wikileaks has been around for several years releasing information about mainly other countries. Guess its ok when they're doing the same thing to other countries...but the moment they turn their attention towards something you care about? OFF WITH HIS HEAD!
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Then you have not been listening. We have been talking about what an asshole he is most of this year, since the leak of the footage of the reporter being killed.
 
MrVicchio said:
A: I hadn't really heard of wikileaks prior to the big release of data earlier in 2010.
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Why is that I wonder? Now I'm not talking about you specifically. I'm talking generally here. Why hadn't many people heard about wikileaks prior to all this? Despite them having been around for YEARS. Not just since 2010. Obviously our government and media had no problem with him giving up other countries secrets...but when it came to our country?

MrVicchio said:
B: Off with his head I say. Other countries are free to apply applicable punishment on their traitors.
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That's just the thing. Assaunge is not a US citizen so by definition he cannot be a traitor. What obligation is Assaunge under to not publish any leaked info that drops in his lap regarding the US?

MrVicchio said:
C: If I don't hear about something, how am I supposed to comment on it?
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Points A and C are basically the same so refer to my response to A.
 
Redress said:
Then you have not been listening. We have been talking about what an asshole he is most of this year, since the leak of the footage of the reporter being killed.
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I haven't been on the internet for most of 2010. But what about prior to 2010? Wikileaks has been around for longer than one year. If you hadn't heard of wikileaks prior to that then I refer you to my repsonse to MrVicchio on his A point.
 
Kal'Stang said:
I haven't been on the internet for most of 2010. But what about prior to 2010? Wikileaks has been around for longer than one year. If you hadn't heard of wikileaks prior to that then I refer you to my repsonse to MrVicchio on his A point.
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I and I think most people had not heard about them prior to that incident. hard to form an opinion of something you have not heard of.
 
Kal'Stang said:
Why is that I wonder? Now I'm not talking about you specifically. I'm talking generally here. Why hadn't many people heard about wikileaks prior to all this? Despite them having been around for YEARS. Not just since 2010. Obviously our government and media had no problem with him giving up other countries secrets...but when it came to our country?
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I recall something about some new whistleblower site... Maybe the Gov't and Media figured that was other countries bidness eh?

Kal'Stang said:
That's just the thing. Assaunge is not a US citizen so by definition he cannot be a traitor. What obligation is Assaunge under to not publish any leaked info that drops in his lap regarding the US?
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I wasn't implying he was a US Citizen, note I did say "Those GIVING Wikileaks information." As for JA, put a bounty on his head, "Wanted Dead or Alive" Crime? Espionage, Terrorism, General douchabaggery.
 
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