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"Dream Act" immigration bill blocked in Senate

Kal'Stang said:
Once our borders are FULLY enforced, fine by me. But not one second before.
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It will never happen. It is an impossibility - too much border. Best to go ahead and have them serve in our military, make em citizens, get em paying taxes. Same time we can crack down on businesses that hire illegals.
 
reefedjib said:
It will never happen. It is an impossibility - too much border. Best to go ahead and have them serve in our military, make em citizens, get em paying taxes. Same time we can crack down on businesses that hire illegals.
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I refer you to post #19. It can be done. Just need a little backbone.
 
Barbbtx said:
Here's a thought. Send them back as soon as we realize the are here illegally.
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That would be ideal, yes. The problem is that when you realize they've been here illegally and the kid is almost an adult and has spent his entire life in the US, is on the verge of going to college and starting his adult life, does it really make sense to punish this young person?

Don't allow them to go to our schools.
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All children have the right to an education. I will never agree to any law that deprives them of one, no matter what their legal status is.

Don't make them automatic citizens for being born here.
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If they're born there, they are citizens and are not the kind of people the Dream Act is trying to protect.

Don't give them welfare, foodstamps and healthcare. Don't give them jobs. If we did that, there would be no need for a fence.
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I have no issue with this. If you make it difficult for the adults to make a life in your country, they will probably stop coming in such high numbers.

We need to find a way to speed up the process so that it's not years of waiting in line to become legal. But there still needs to be a line.
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Agreed.
 
Kal'Stang said:
Children always pay for thier parents mistakes. It is the way life is. If a childs dad has a reputation of being nasty you can be sure that the child will get attention for that..and not in a positive way. Children also have to pay for thier parents bills when the parent dies.
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All the more reason to make things easier for them, not harder. I'm not saying give them automatic citizenship, but at least give them the opportunity to finish their education and then earn the right to stay in the country by serving in the military for a couple of years.
 
If people were actually serious about tackling immigration they wouldnt go this route. Im just surprised that their wasnt more support from both warmongering blues and reds because they would have access to another nation to kill foreigners with. It wouldve been good for the warmongering statists; "Hey lets get the illegals to kill the Muslims, Arabs and Pashtuns! That way we dont have to send our brats to the slaughter!"


If people were actually serious about illegal immigration they would look at the root causes of why illegals come here.

Contrary to the Buchanan dribble that they are out to kill white people or any other bull**** explanation its because;

1. The Welfare system

In my research Mexico doesn't have a welfare system like we have, there is none. Instead of bitching about them being on welfare rolls, how about railing against the welfare system. If people are actually serious about cutting spending, entitlement programs should be top priority. This has to be one of the most overlooked issue in the debate for the fact its easier to squawk that they're welfare bums.

2. Employers hiring illegals

Many in this find it easier to support police state tactics when your there the target. Of course when the tactics are used against you, you scream fowl and police state but only because you have been target not because its actually wrong on various levels. 9 times out of 10 illegals come here to work and make money, the way to remedy this is to strengthen employment laws. If your records dont match, you cant get a job. When they cant find work, they leave
 
Kal'Stang said:
I wouldn't say impossible. Hard, most certainly, but not impossible.

Two layers of razor fencing with land mines in between the fences and seismic monitors paced far enough apart that you can zero in on where the land mine explodes (or someone walks) with in 5 meters. Enough agents to cover the area to where there is at least 1 agent per half mile. All agents armed with a full arsenal of guns to shoot anyone that manages to get past the fences/mines. (of course before they shoot them they should determine if they are here illegally first. Don't want to kill innocents)

For those that come here on ships...search every single ship that comes into port with dogs and the proper technology to find hidden panels. Once the illegals are found....shoot em. Then shoot the Captain of the ship.

I would imagine that with this kind of security then NO ONE would even want to attempt to come into the country illegally.
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Can you think of any country that has ever managed to really secure it's borders? I can't think of a single one. The cost alone would be prohibitive, and your suggestion won't do it.
 
Redress said:
Can you think of any country that has ever managed to really secure it's borders? I can't think of a single one. The cost alone would be prohibitive, and your suggestion won't do it.
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So just because you can't secure your borders 100% you don't secure them at all? The complaint is a lack of effort to do much of anything at all. We can do a lot more. Reasonable people realize there are limits but what we are doing, or more accurately not doing, is ridiculous.
 
The mere fact that we have elected officials that even considered this idea is fantastically unbelievable.

But we do.

Wow.
 
jambalaya said:
So just because you can't secure your borders 100% you don't secure them at all? The complaint is a lack of effort to do much of anything at all. We can do a lot more. Reasonable people realize there are limits but what we are doing, or more accurately not doing, is ridiculous.
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That is not what I said. At all. In fact, this is:

Redress said:
To me, I think DREAM would work if, at least for now, it allowed those who came into the country under the age of 16 and have broken no other laws to serve in the military(if they qualify otherwise, ie if they can get in) and serve 4 years to get access to the chance to attain citizenship. Along with that, we need to do things to slow as much as possible(it's impossible to completely end illegal immigration) by going after employers and those in the country illegally and making it more difficult to enter the country illegally. I think all this should be done together.
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Redress said:
Can you think of any country that has ever managed to really secure it's borders? I can't think of a single one. The cost alone would be prohibitive, and your suggestion won't do it.
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The Soviet Union.
 
Redress said:
That is not what I said. At all. In fact, this is:
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So we kind of agree. I am just insisting that we do things in reverse order otherwise Congress will do nothing on the enforcement front. They'll just pass DREAM and follow it with other compassionate and nice sounding bills that get people labled as insensitive if they are against them. I am not playing that game with the jerks in Congress.
 
Redress said:
Can you think of any country that has ever managed to really secure it's borders? I can't think of a single one. The cost alone would be prohibitive, and your suggestion won't do it.
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Well, if you don't like that idea, maybe we should treat illegal immigrants the way they would treat us if we tried to move into their country.
I think a fence is more compassionate and there's no reason it can't be done.
 
jambalaya said:
So we kind of agree. I am just insisting that we do things in reverse order otherwise Congress will do nothing on the enforcement front. They'll just pass DREAM and follow it with other compassionate and nice sounding bills that get people labled as insensitive if they are against them. I am not playing that game with the jerks in Congress.
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I think it should be all done in one package. Probably not everything, since I abhor making huge hard to undo changes, but put improved border security, improved enforcement against employers of illegals and illegals themselves, and the variation of the DREAM act I suggested all in one package.
 
Barbbtx said:
Well, if you don't like that idea, maybe we should treat illegal immigrants the way they would treat us if we tried to move into their country.
I think a fence is more compassionate and there's no reason it can't be done.
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Barb, do you know what a straw man is?
 
Redress said:
I think it should be all done in one package. Probably not everything, since I abhor making huge hard to undo changes, but put improved border security, improved enforcement against employers of illegals and illegals themselves, and the variation of the DREAM act I suggested all in one package.
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Amnesty failed when Reagan did it. It will fail again. There is no way to stop the Mexican takeover of America. Mexicans are entitled to go any where on earth they want to without any one raising objections.
 
Albert Di Salvo said:
Amnesty failed when Reagan did it. It will fail again. There is no way to stop the Mexican takeover of America. Mexicans are entitled to go any where on earth they want to without any one raising objections.
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The DREAM act is not about stopping illegal immigration. If it is being sold as such that is entirely dishonest.
 
Redress said:
The DREAM act is not about stopping illegal immigration. If it is being sold as such that is entirely dishonest.
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You are flat out completely wrong and in error.

The Stupid Dream Act is the first step for amnesty. The first step down the slippery slope of allowing millions and millions to become US citizens.

Edit: These Mexican kids now have a choice. They can go back to their country or they can live here in the shadows for the rest of their lives. This works for me.
 
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Albert Di Salvo said:
You are flat out completely wrong and in error.

The Stupid Dream Act is the first step for amnesty. The first step down the slippery slope of allowing millions and millions to become US citizens.
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Read what I wrote please. Nowhere did I say anything about amnesty. Obviously allowing some in the country a route to citizenship is a form of amnesty, though to my mind in this case a fairly benign one.
 
Albert Di Salvo said:
You are flat out completely wrong and in error.

The Stupid Dream Act is the first step for amnesty. The first step down the slippery slope of allowing millions and millions to become US citizens.
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yeah, those assholes who think serving in our military should count for something are just stupid mexicans, right?
 
reefedjib said:
It will never happen. It is an impossibility - too much border. Best to go ahead and have them serve in our military, make em citizens, get em paying taxes. Same time we can crack down on businesses that hire illegals.
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I would rather the illegal immigration problem be slowed down to a trickle than to just leave the flood gates open.We should secure the border. We should crack down on the scum who hire illegals by jailing them,revoking their business license and make them subject to assets seizure and forfeiture law. Since it takes two to tango we should also throw illegals who are caught into jail 6 for six months(assuming this is their first offense and only crime) before sending them back their country.We do not need to legalize any illegal that is here

We should also do things on the local level to entice illegals to go back to their countries-

1.No tax payer funded services(driver's licenses, food handler permits,IDs, business licenses and etc) for illegals. The fact someone is here illegally means that they should not be allowed to walk into a government office without being arrested.


2. Require financial institutions(banks,check cashing places and money wiring services ) to require a valid state ID.

3. Require auto-dealerships new and used to not sell vehicles to anyone without a valid state issued driver's license.

4.Require schools to verify that the parents are actually residents of the state(illegals can not be residents of the state) and have local valid state issued IDs or driver's licenses.

5.No tax payer funded benefits(welfare,food stamps, education and etc.)or illegals.Again the fact someone is here illegally means that they should not be allowed to walk into a government office without being arrested.

6.Require the police to verify the legal status of everyone they pull over for a traffic offense. This one no one can falsely claim discrimination or racial profiling. This would also get illegals from Canada and European countries and other illegals who can easily blend in with the local population.

7.Require hospitals to report illegals to authorities. If they have to report gun shot wounds and child abuse then there is no reason we can't require hospitals to report illegals.

8.Enact something similar to Arizona's law that makes it hard to pick up day laborers.
 
Redress said:
Read what I wrote please. Nowhere did I say anything about amnesty. Obviously allowing some in the country a route to citizenship is a form of amnesty, though to my mind in this case a fairly benign one.
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Won't happen. They will live in the shadows. That is the price for illegality. These Mexican kids must not be allowed to be the beneficiaries of their parents evil and illegal actions.
 
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