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DADT cloture passes

There will be seperate billets, which will damage unit cohesion, or there will be a bar on gays enlisting in combat arms units. I expect the latter to take place, first.

The sexual harassment rate will double, if not triple and the retention and enlistment rate will plummet.

Tell us wha you expect.

If the sexual harassment numbers don't go up, I'd be greatly surprised. Afterall, there are a lot of guys out there who will claim sexual harassment from just having to live with a gay dude.

Harassment claims in general should also go up. This should be expected, since under DADT, it is not in a gay servicemember's best interest to report cases of harassment, despite rules against such harassment already in place, because if proof of their sexuality is found, then they get discharged.

The rest of what you expect to happen is just based on fears. It is possible, but not likely. Gay men are serving in combat arms units now. Gay men and women are showering/berthing with straight men and women now, and they will not be required to reveal their sexuality openly to anyone or everyone.
 
There will be seperate billets, which will damage unit cohesion, or there will be a bar on gays enlisting in combat arms units. I expect the latter to take place, first.

The sexual harassment rate will double, if not triple and the retention and enlistment rate will plummet.

Tell us wha you expect.

There will not be separate billets, the DoD has made it clear it follow the recommendations of the "Report of the Comprehensive Review of the Issues Associated with a Repeal of “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell.” Otherwise known as the DADT survey. Pages 12, 13, 14, and 141 will show you exactly how the military will handle the issues of billeting and seperate shower areas, on page 12 where at the bottom under a subsection called Privacy and Cohabitation it reads:

The creation of a third and possibly fourth category of bathroom facilities and livingquarters, whether at bases or forward deployed areas, would be a logistical nightmare,expensive, and impossible to administer.

http://www.defense.gov/home/features/2010/0610_gatesdadt/DADTReport_FINAL_20101130(secure-hires).pdf

Now that is only an assessment, but I think you'd agree its very accurate. You and I both know how difficult it can be sometimes to secure private areas for men and women, and I don't think either us would disagree that making a 3rd or 4th category is practical in the least.

As far as sexual harassment due the presence of gays the report has this to say:

Most concerns we heard about showers and bathrooms were based on stereotype—that gay men and lesbians will behave as predators in these situations, or that permittinghomosexual and heterosexual people of the same sex to shower together is tantamount to allowing men and women to shower together. However, common sense tells us that asituation in which people of different anatomy shower together is different from a situation in which people of the same anatomy but different sexual orientations shower together. The former is uncommon and unacceptable to almost everyone in this country; the latter is a situation most in the military have already experienced. Indeed, the survey results indicate 50% of Service members recognize they have already had the experience of sharing bathroom facilities with someone they believed to be gay.31 This is also a situation resembling what now exists in hundreds of thousands of college dorms, college and high school gyms, professional sports locker rooms, police and fire stations, and athletic clubs around the nation. And, as one gay former Service member told us, to fit in, co-exist, and conform to social norms, gay men have learned to avoid making heterosexuals feel uncomfortable or threatened in these situations.

Now what I expect is a comparably smooth transition in comparison the end of racial segregation and the introduction of women into the regular service, and their continued increased pretense throughout the service. That is because, as the survey showed, many of the US military knows someone who is gay within their unit. So many servicemen are already serving with what are all for practical purposes openly gay individuals. Also unlike when racial or gender segregation ended, there will no new introductions into a unit. A man, who is uncomfortable with gays to one degree or another, who suddenly discovers his buddy is gay, is less likely to cause problems about it. Why? Because he knows his buddy, they have a history and a trust built up over time, unlike a racist for example who suddenly comes into work one day and finds several black Soldiers, whose he never met before and has no relationship with, in his office or unit.

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2010/12/ap-lessons-learned-from-integrating-military-122110/

Of course it won't be entirely smooth sailing there will be incidents of sexual discrimination, crimes motivated by Soldiers who now see a homosexual in their ranks, and issues of some people leaving the military which will no doubt include a few unquestionably highly valuable Soldiers.

What I do NOT expect to see is a massive rise in sexual harassment as you predict, specifically because gays are already serving in our military and are being much smaller in number than women or blacks, at least according to the survey's estimates. The survey estimates there are roughly 46,000 homosexuals currently serving in uniform. Now I don't know how many sexual harassment incidents there are a year but I do know that there is no way 46,000 people can commit double or triple the amount of sexual harassment seen in the military. A gay rights groups has an estimate of 66,000 in active duty, or roughly 2% of the total.
Federal Eye - Eye Opener: Estimate: 66,000 gays in the military

So you are suggesting that 66,000 people will have double or triple the amount of sexual embarrassments as the roughly 833,000 active duty service members. That means you are suggesting that for every act of sexual harassment committed by a straight service-member, 12.5 homosexuals will commit an act. And thats to keep the numbers even between the two groups. To double, 25 homosexuals will commit an act of sexual harassment for every one straight Soldier, 37.5 for triple. That by the way is a 1250% higher rate of sexual harassment for homosexuals to say even, 2500% higher to double, and 3750% higher to triple.

If we assume that 10,000 acts are committed every year, that means of those 66,000 gay Soldiers, 125,000 will commit an act to stay even, 250,000 to double, and 375000 to triple. In other words you think its plausible that on average each gay Soldier will commit 3 separate acts of reported sexual harassments, since obviously only reported ones go into those rate educations. If we only assume 1,000 are committed every year than we are up to half of all gay Soldiers committed one reported act.
 
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If the sexual harassment numbers don't go up, I'd be greatly surprised. Afterall, there are a lot of guys out there who will claim sexual harassment from just having to live with a gay dude.

Harassment claims in general should also go up. This should be expected, since under DADT, it is not in a gay servicemember's best interest to report cases of harassment, despite rules against such harassment already in place, because if proof of their sexuality is found, then they get discharged.

This I agree with and for the same reasons.

The rest of what you expect to happen is just based on fears. It is possible, but not likely. Gay men are serving in combat arms units now. Gay men and women are showering/berthing with straight men and women now, and they will not be required to reveal their sexuality openly to anyone or everyone.

It's based on experience and a familiarity with the system and how combat arms units work.
 
Yawn......


Neener, neener. :neener
 
There will not be separate billets, the DoD has made it clear it follow the recommendations of the "Report of the Comprehensive Review of the Issues Associated with a Repeal of “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell.” Otherwise known as the DADT survey. Pages 12, 13, 14, and 141 will show you exactly how the military will handle the issues of billeting and seperate shower areas, on page 12 where at the bottom under a subsection called Privacy and Cohabitation it reads:



http://www.defense.gov/home/features/2010/0610_gatesdadt/DADTReport_FINAL_20101130(secure-hires).pdf

Now that is only an assessment, but I think you'd agree its very accurate. You and I both know how difficult it can be sometimes to secure private areas for men and women, and I don't think either us would disagree that making a 3rd or 4th category is practical in the least.

As far as sexual harassment due the presence of gays the report has this to say:



Now what I expect is a comparably smooth transition in comparison the end of racial segregation and the introduction of women into the regular service, and their continued increased pretense throughout the service. That is because, as the survey showed, many of the US military knows someone who is gay within their unit. So many servicemen are already serving with what are all for practical purposes openly gay individuals. Also unlike when racial or gender segregation ended, there will no new introductions into a unit. A man, who is uncomfortable with gays to one degree or another, who suddenly discovers his buddy is gay, is less likely to cause problems about it. Why? Because he knows his buddy, they have a history and a trust built up over time, unlike a racist for example who suddenly comes into work one day and finds several black Soldiers, whose he never met before and has no relationship with, in his office or unit.

Post-DADT: Racial, sexual integration are guide - Army News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Army Times

Of course it won't be entirely smooth sailing there will be incidents of sexual discrimination, crimes motivated by Soldiers who now see a homosexual in their ranks, and issues of some people leaving the military which will no doubt include a few unquestionably highly valuable Soldiers.

What I do NOT expect to see is a massive rise in sexual harassment as you predict, specifically because gays are already serving in our military and are being much smaller in number than women or blacks, at least according to the survey's estimates. The survey estimates there are roughly 46,000 homosexuals currently serving in uniform. Now I don't know how many sexual harassment incidents there are a year but I do know that there is no way 46,000 people can commit double or triple the amount of sexual harassment seen in the military. A gay rights groups has an estimate of 66,000 in active duty, or roughly 2% of the total.
Federal Eye - Eye Opener: Estimate: 66,000 gays in the military

So you are suggesting that 66,000 people will have double or triple the amount of sexual embarrassments as the roughly 833,000 active duty service members. That means you are suggesting that for every act of sexual harassment committed by a straight service-member, 12.5 homosexuals will commit an act. And thats to keep the numbers even between the two groups. To double, 25 homosexuals will commit an act of sexual harassment for every one straight Soldier, 37.5 for triple. That by the way is a 1250% higher rate of sexual harassment for homosexuals to say even, 2500% higher to double, and 3750% higher to triple.

If we assume that 10,000 acts are committed every year, that means of those 66,000 gay Soldiers, 125,000 will commit an act to stay even, 250,000 to double, and 375000 to triple. In other words you think its plausible that on average each gay Soldier will commit 3 separate acts of reported sexual harassments, since obviously only reported ones go into those rate educations. If we only assume 1,000 are committed every year than we are up to half of all gay Soldiers committed one reported act.

The DoD Has also made it clear that local commander have descesionary authority to make whatever billet arrangements they deem necessary for the good of the command. There's no way in hell that you can say with any amount of certainty, that there will be no seperate billets for gay and straight soldiers.

I'm starting to wonder why it's such a big to the abolitionists that gay and straight soldiers live in the same barracks. Is it that repressed resentment of all those homophobes out there?
 
The DoD Has also made it clear that local commander have descesionary authority to make whatever billet arrangements they deem necessary for the good of the command. There's no way in hell that you can say with any amount of certainty, that there will be no seperate billets for gay and straight soldiers.

I'm starting to wonder why it's such a big to the abolitionists that gay and straight soldiers live in the same barracks. Is it that repressed resentment of all those homophobes out there?

On a case by case basis they have, not as a policy to have seperate billets.
 
On a case by case basis they have, not as a policy to have seperate billets.

I think we may be surprised how many, "case-by-case", scenarios there are.

Hey, I hope I'm wrong about all of this and it goes off without a hitch, but my own experience tells me that that won't be the case.
 
I think we may be surprised how many, "case-by-case", scenarios there are.

Hey, I hope I'm wrong about all of this and it goes off without a hitch, but my own experience tells me that that won't be the case.

Really? All the vast amount of experience you have integrating homosexual troops?
 
Really? All the vast amount of experience you have integrating homosexual troops?

My vast experience in the military's system and my familiarity of the rules and regulations. Not to mention being aware of the fact that just because a person has stars on his collar, or has SECDEF, or even POTUS as a title, doesn't mean they can just through the regulations out the window and do what they want. It just don't work that way.

Soldiers have rights; rights that are guaranteed by DoD regulations and policies. Those rights can be stripped away with a couple of comments in a newspaper article.

Those rights, rules, regulations and policies, along with the mandatory adherence to such by everyone in the chain of command, from the top to the bottom, are what make the United States Military the finest fighting force in the history of the human race. Circumvention of this system will have negative consequences.
 
My vast experience in the military's system and my familiarity of the rules and regulations. Not to mention being aware of the fact that just because a person has stars on his collar, or has SECDEF, or even POTUS as a title, doesn't mean they can just through the regulations out the window and do what they want. It just don't work that way.

Soldiers have rights; rights that are guaranteed by DoD regulations and policies. Those rights can be stripped away with a couple of comments in a newspaper article.

Those rights, rules, regulations and policies, along with the mandatory adherence to such by everyone in the chain of command, from the top to the bottom, are what make the United States Military the finest fighting force in the history of the human race. Circumvention of this system will have negative consequences.

Obviously you have absolutely no faith in your military at all.

If you think openly gay troops can bring it down, your opinion of your military is obviously a highly negative one. If they can't handle a gay with them in the foxhole, then they ain't handling ****.
 
Really? All the vast amount of experience you have integrating homosexual troops?

Man, I can never quite keep up on these newfangled code words.

The deed is called "integrating", now, is it?
 
My vast experience in the military's system and my familiarity of the rules and regulations. Not to mention being aware of the fact that just because a person has stars on his collar, or has SECDEF, or even POTUS as a title, doesn't mean they can just through the regulations out the window and do what they want. It just don't work that way.

Soldiers have rights; rights that are guaranteed by DoD regulations and policies. Those rights can be stripped away with a couple of comments in a newspaper article.

Those rights, rules, regulations and policies, along with the mandatory adherence to such by everyone in the chain of command, from the top to the bottom, are what make the United States Military the finest fighting force in the history of the human race. Circumvention of this system will have negative consequences.

Soldiers do not have the right to not be uncomfortable. Just like a racist cannot request a different billet because his roommate is black.
 
Obviously you have absolutely no faith in your military at all.

That argument is becoming so damn lame. Is that and, "gays are already showering with straights", really the only thing you can come up with? Not a single suggestion from any of you about how to make the transition more comfortable, just the usual Libbos, "yooz a homophobe", and, "why do you hate the the military", crap.

If you think openly gay troops can bring it down, your opinion of your military is obviously a highly negative one. If they can't handle a gay with them in the foxhole, then they ain't handling ****.

Do you support a lifting of the ban on membership in extremist orginizations?

You didn't even understand my last post, did you?
 
That argument is becoming so damn lame. Is that and, "gays are already showering with straights", really the only thing you can come up with? Not a single suggestion from any of you about how to make the transition more comfortable, just the usual Libbos, "yooz a homophobe", and, "why do you hate the the military", crap.



Do you support a lifting of the ban on membership in extremist orginizations?

You didn't even understand my last post, did you?

And you resort to I don't even know what....

How is it not true, that if you think the Military can be brought down by a few homosexuals, that you don't think highly of the military?

I didn't say you hate it. I didn't say you're a homophobe.

You know, it really pisses me off how you continually accuse everyone of playing the race card, and then you play the homophobe card ON YOURSELF.

Classy move buddy, stay classy.
 
And you resort to I don't even know what....

How is it not true, that if you think the Military can be brought down by a few homosexuals, that you don't think highly of the military?

I didn't say you hate it. I didn't say you're a homophobe.

You know, it really pisses me off how you continually accuse everyone of playing the race card, and then you play the homophobe card ON YOURSELF.

Classy move buddy, stay classy.

Do you support removing the ban on membership in extremist orginizations. i.e KKK, Black Panthers, Skinheads, etc.?

Well, do you?
 
Do you support removing the ban on membership in extremist orginizations. i.e KKK, Black Panthers, Skinheads, etc.?

Well, do you?

What does that have to do with anything?

This is about homosexuals, stop changing the goddamned topic.
 
Do you support removing the ban on membership in extremist orginizations. i.e KKK, Black Panthers, Skinheads, etc.?

Well, do you?


And the price of tea in China is? Do you know........:mrgreen:
 
What does that have to do with anything?

This is about homosexuals, stop changing the goddamned topic.

We're talking the proffessionalism of the average American soldier and I want to know if you support lifting the ban on memberships in extremist orgs.
 
We're talking the proffessionalism of the average American soldier and I want to know if you support lifting the ban on memberships in extremist orgs.

No I don't.

Are homosexuals an extremist organization?

No?

Good. So that has **** all to do with anything. Cool.

Now that that's out of the way, which it shouldn't have been in the first place.

Get the hell over yourself and stop worrying about the gays. everyone will be just fine.
 
And the price of tea in China is? Do you know........:mrgreen:

My faith in my brothers and sisters in arms has been questioned. That's what.

In exchange, I would like to test yall's faith in our service members.
 
No I don't.

Are homosexuals an extremist organization?

No?

Good. So that has **** all to do with anything. Cool.

Now that that's out of the way, which it shouldn't have been in the first place.

Get the hell over yourself and stop worrying about the gays. everyone will be just fine.

Ok, why not?
 
Are homosexuals an extremist Organization?

This has **** all to do with anything.

You're scared to answer the question, aren't you? You see the corner you've painted yourself into.

It has **** all to do with everything, since we're talking about the ability of the American serviceman to handle dealing with something he doesn't agree with and continueing to soldier on.
 
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You're scared to answer the question, aren't you? You see the corner you've painted yourself into.

It has **** all to do with everything, since we're talking about the ability of the American serviceman to handle dealing with something he doesn't agree with and continueing to soldier on.

If you're an extremist, you're an extremist.

Why would you say its any more ok for a KKK member, of a member of Al Quaeda serving in the US military, as funny as that sounds.

I'm sorry what corner? You brought up this topic for no reason at all... Because you simply cannot prove that gays will have a profoundly negative effect.

You've been against repeal from the very beggining.

I understand your arguments, and quite frankly my dear, I don't give a damn. Your own prejudice is yours.

**** the KKK.
 
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