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Thread: DADT cloture passes

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    Re: DADT cloture passes

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    In your opinion. There are some highly experienced, highly decorated, very intelligent officers, currently serving in the military, that claim the opposite. There are even folks that don't agree with members of certain religions.

    if your argument is, "our servicemen and women are professional enough to handle it", then that same argument should apply to everything. Unless, the person pushing that argument is only interested in political correctness, vice freedom, liberty and fairness. i.e hypocrisy.

    I've served with more open racists than I have with open gays. Even in units that I've served in that had issues, racism wasn't it.
    Well yes its about opinion, the Army and the government has defined what professionalism is, what the Army values are, what it means to be a Soldier, etc etc that in your opinion do not include homosexual acts or open homosexuality. I'm going to take my ultimate perspective and unbias approach here and say that I'm not going to try and prove that having Soldiers who belong to hate groups for example would make an unprofessional Army, I believe it would certainly make a different Army but thats just a fact.

    My argument isn't that "our servicemen and women are professional enough to handle it" is a reason to remove DADT by itself, as in just because they can handle it lets do it for an arbitrary reason. No in my opinion it will make us a more professional Army, truer to the Army vales, and truer to what our Army should be, that combined with our servicemen and women are professional enough to handle the change is a reason.

    I don't expect to try and convince you otherwise because I don't think its possible considering you obviously have very different views on what is professional.

    But I still am curious about what you think is going to happen once its removed.

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    Re: DADT cloture passes

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    I thought the puritans left on their own, due to a dislike for their faiths, or some such.

    Hell, my ancestors might have been some.
    They came here for religious freedom, because The Church of England was the only legal religion.

    And, when they got here, they oulawed Christmas and legalized abortion. Go figger!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: DADT cloture passes

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    Well yes its about opinion, the Army and the government has defined what professionalism is, what the Army values are, what it means to be a Soldier, etc etc that in your opinion do not include homosexual acts or open homosexuality. I'm going to take my ultimate perspective and unbias approach here and say that I'm not going to try and prove that having Soldiers who belong to hate groups for example would make an unprofessional Army, I believe it would certainly make a different Army but thats just a fact.

    My argument isn't that "our servicemen and women are professional enough to handle it" is a reason to remove DADT by itself, as in just because they can handle it lets do it for an arbitrary reason. No in my opinion it will make us a more professional Army, truer to the Army vales, and truer to what our Army should be, that combined with our servicemen and women are professional enough to handle the change is a reason.

    I don't expect to try and convince you otherwise because I don't think its possible considering you obviously have very different views on what is professional.
    The point I'm making--successfully--is that this has zilch to do with, "making our military better"; that's a bull**** argument, to begin with. It's all doing what's politically correct.

    But I still am curious about what you think is going to happen once its removed.
    1) There will be seperated billets for straight and gay soldiers.

    2) The sexual harassment rate is going to rise, significantly.

    3) The rape rate in going to rise.

    4) There will be bans on gay soldiers serving in combat arms MOS's.

    Those are some of the things that I believe will happen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: DADT cloture passes

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The point I'm making--successfully--is that this has zilch to do with, "making our military better"; that's a bull**** argument, to begin with. It's all doing what's politically correct.



    1) There will be seperated billets for straight and gay soldiers.

    2) The sexual harassment rate is going to rise, significantly.

    3) The rape rate in going to rise.

    4) There will be bans on gay soldiers serving in combat arms MOS's.

    Those are some of the things that I believe will happen.
    Well I believe the military has a responsibility to its Soldiers, homosexual or straight, to support them fully and not constantly tell them that what for them may be an act of love may get them dishonorably discharged. And I have no problem with taking Soldiers, in this case those with a problem with gays, and saying you will bear this additional burden because it is the right thing to do for your fellow Soldier to ensure their basic rights are protected. I have no problem with forcing change when I think its a moral change and I have a duty to force change, as an officer, when the Army says "this will be our policy." If the policy had remained DADT and I was confronted with a situation with a gay Soldier I would follow the DADT policy and begin UCMJ action against him, not because I change my personal beliefs to the Army's, but I believe that a Soldier following orders and policies is the most important thing. After all, if we have Soldiers who can't follow orders what kind of Army would we have?

    Now, could you explain why you think you are more accurate in your predictions than the Army's own study. And then provide me a range of numbers, in percentages, for the areas you mentioned that will change. For example instead of saying sexual harassment will rise significantly say it'll rise between 5%-10% from the current average. That way it'll be clear what you mean and it'll be clear if you are right or wrong, because saying "significantly" could mean anything.

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    Re: DADT cloture passes

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    Well I believe the military has a responsibility to its Soldiers, homosexual or straight, to support them fully and not constantly tell them that what for them may be an act of love may get them dishonorably discharged. And I have no problem with taking Soldiers, in this case those with a problem with gays, and saying you will bear this additional burden because it is the right thing to do for your fellow Soldier to ensure their basic rights are protected. I have no problem with forcing change when I think its a moral change and I have a duty to force change, as an officer, when the Army says "this will be our policy." If the policy had remained DADT and I was confronted with a situation with a gay Soldier I would follow the DADT policy and begin UCMJ action against him, not because I change my personal beliefs to the Army's, but I believe that a Soldier following orders and policies is the most important thing. After all, if we have Soldiers who can't follow orders what kind of Army would we have?
    The same arugment could be used to lift all the other bans on basic liberties that the military has in place. Yes?


    Now, could you explain why you think you are more accurate in your predictions than the Army's own study. And then provide me a range of numbers, in percentages, for the areas you mentioned that will change.
    I wasn't aware that the Pentagon's study gave any predicitons on sexual harassment rates.

    For example instead of saying sexual harassment will rise significantly say it'll rise between 5%-10% from the current average. That way it'll be clear what you mean and it'll be clear if you are right or wrong, because saying "significantly" could mean anything.
    I said, "significantly", because sexual harassment rates are going to quadriple at the worst and double at best. Why, you ask? Because, the first time a soldier is ordered to share billets with a soldier of an opposite sexual orientation, the next step will be for that soldier to file a sexual harassment charge. That's just for starters. There will thousands more cases filed, everytime a soldier is looked at cross-eyed by another soldier of the opposite sexual persuasion. Notice, I don't specify gay on straight, or straight on gay situations?

    That's not to mention the gay on gay harassment; and let's not pretend that kind of behavior doesn't exist within the gay community.

    Then, there are going to be the clowns that join the service and the first time they are made to do something they don't like, it's going to be, "because I'm gay", then there's going to be an equal oppurtunity board conviened over the affair. The EO board will explain--more than likely without any success--how it's nothing to do with his sexual orientation and that every soldier has to have a turn at doing the ****ty details and that day, it was his turn.

    At the end of the day, this isn't going to result in anything other than using up time that coould otherwise be used to train soldiers how to stay alive on the battlefield.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: DADT cloture passes

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The same arugment could be used to lift all the other bans on basic liberties that the military has in place. Yes?


    No, I'm simply telling you how I will implement military policies not saying its an argument for anything. I could disagree with DADT, like I would disagree with allowing members of hate groups in the military, but regardless of my personal opinion it wouldnt change how I implement the policy.

    I wasn't aware that the Pentagon's study gave any predicitons on sexual harassment rates.

    It does I linked them to you and gave the page numbers

    I said, "significantly", because sexual harassment rates are going to quadriple at the worst and double at best. Why, you ask? Because, the first time a soldier is ordered to share billets with a soldier of an opposite sexual orientation, the next step will be for that soldier to file a sexual harassment charge. That's just for starters. There will thousands more cases filed, everytime a soldier is looked at cross-eyed by another soldier of the opposite sexual persuasion. Notice, I don't specify gay on straight, or straight on gay situations?

    That's not to mention the gay on gay harassment; and let's not pretend that kind of behavior doesn't exist within the gay community.

    Then, there are going to be the clowns that join the service and the first time they are made to do something they don't like, it's going to be, "because I'm gay", then there's going to be an equal oppurtunity board conviened over the affair. The EO board will explain--more than likely without any success--how it's nothing to do with his sexual orientation and that every soldier has to have a turn at doing the ****ty details and that day, it was his turn.

    At the end of the day, this isn't going to result in anything other than using up time that coould otherwise be used to train soldiers how to stay alive on the battlefield.
    How is that any different than the situation describing the end of racial segregation? I won't deny there won't be issues but those Soldiers with issues will change, Soldiers will say they are being ordered to do something because they are gay just like there were some who claimed racism. And Soldiers will file complaints for bunking with a gay Soldier like they did for a black one, but it will go away as they change.

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    Re: DADT cloture passes

    The army is as strong as ever...

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    Re: DADT cloture passes

    I think our men and women in uniform can handle the passing of this historic legislation.. they have been through years and years of war for ****s sake

  9. #649
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    Re: DADT cloture passes

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    I think our men and women in uniform can handle the passing of this historic legislation.. they have been through years and years of war for ****s sake
    Nope.

    All the gay people in the military will now be able to reveal their true nature as rabid sex maniacs, and all the straight people will flee the military in fear of being raped by gay people.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

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    Re: DADT cloture passes

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    Nope.

    All the gay people in the military will now be able to reveal their true nature as rabid sex maniacs, and all the straight people will flee the military in fear of being raped by gay people.
    I will check back with you on this tomorrow

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