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Thread: DADT cloture passes

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    Re: DADT cloture passes

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    We've argued this over and over before, although thinking 80-90% of the military is going to get out is complete fantasy and you have nothing to back up those numbers.
    Anyway, I'm curious as to what you expect to see happen in the next year or two. You are convinced the military will fail or at least suffer in a great way, how will you measure that effect? A year or two from now, how will you measure the effect you are sure will happen.

    In fact, how do you measure anything you say? I'm saying this now because I'm certain you are going claim you were right all along, and probably post some sob story from a Soldier who got out the military in disgrace for something related to fellow Soldiers, who happen to be homosexual. However I believe you have no way what-so-ever to measure the effects you are talking about, the 80-90% of the military quitting speculation shows that.[/QUOTE]

    I never said anything of the sort. Care to address comments that I have made? Or are you going to keep addressing comments that I didn't make? If the latter, then go on about your business.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: DADT cloture passes

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    We've argued this over and over before, although thinking 80-90% of the military is going to get out is complete fantasy and you have nothing to back up those numbers. Anyway, I'm curious as to what you expect to see happen in the next year or two. You are convinced the military will fail or at least suffer in a great way, how will you measure that effect? A year or two from now, how will you measure the effect you are sure will happen.

    In fact, how do you measure anything you say? I'm saying this now because I'm certain you are going claim you were right all along, and probably post some sob story from a Soldier who got out the military in disgrace for something related to fellow Soldiers, who happen to be homosexual. However I believe you have no way what-so-ever to measure the effects you are talking about, the 80-90% of the military quitting speculation shows that.
    I never said anything of the sort.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: DADT cloture passes

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I never said anything of the sort.
    Ok so tell me what you think is going to happen in the next year or two as DADT is removed. How will you show, in a measureable way, that the US military will be weaker.

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    Re: DADT cloture passes

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    Just as a point of definition, women are not banned from Combat Arms branches. They are banned from the Infantry and Armor branches, they are allowed to serve in Field Artillery, Aviation, and Air Defense Artillery
    Another point of definition, ADA is the only combat arm that women are allowed to serve in and aviation isn't a combat arm. In reality, ADA isn't a combat arm, either. And, females aren't allowed to serve in line batteries of artillery units. Also, females are barred from serving in combat engineers--12B type.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: DADT cloture passes

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    Ok so tell me what you think is going to happen in the next year or two as DADT is removed. How will you show, in a measureable way, that the US military will be weaker.
    There will be seperate billets, which will damage unit cohesion, or there will be a bar on gays enlisting in combat arms units. I expect the latter to take place, first.

    The sexual harassment rate will double, if not triple and the retention and enlistment rate will plummet.

    Tell us wha you expect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: DADT cloture passes

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    There will be seperate billets, which will damage unit cohesion, or there will be a bar on gays enlisting in combat arms units. I expect the latter to take place, first.

    The sexual harassment rate will double, if not triple and the retention and enlistment rate will plummet.

    Tell us wha you expect.
    If the sexual harassment numbers don't go up, I'd be greatly surprised. Afterall, there are a lot of guys out there who will claim sexual harassment from just having to live with a gay dude.

    Harassment claims in general should also go up. This should be expected, since under DADT, it is not in a gay servicemember's best interest to report cases of harassment, despite rules against such harassment already in place, because if proof of their sexuality is found, then they get discharged.

    The rest of what you expect to happen is just based on fears. It is possible, but not likely. Gay men are serving in combat arms units now. Gay men and women are showering/berthing with straight men and women now, and they will not be required to reveal their sexuality openly to anyone or everyone.
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    Re: DADT cloture passes

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    There will be seperate billets, which will damage unit cohesion, or there will be a bar on gays enlisting in combat arms units. I expect the latter to take place, first.

    The sexual harassment rate will double, if not triple and the retention and enlistment rate will plummet.

    Tell us wha you expect.
    There will not be separate billets, the DoD has made it clear it follow the recommendations of the "Report of the Comprehensive Review of the Issues Associated with a Repeal of “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell.” Otherwise known as the DADT survey. Pages 12, 13, 14, and 141 will show you exactly how the military will handle the issues of billeting and seperate shower areas, on page 12 where at the bottom under a subsection called Privacy and Cohabitation it reads:

    The creation of a third and possibly fourth category of bathroom facilities and livingquarters, whether at bases or forward deployed areas, would be a logistical nightmare,expensive, and impossible to administer.
    http://www.defense.gov/home/features...e-hires%29.pdf

    Now that is only an assessment, but I think you'd agree its very accurate. You and I both know how difficult it can be sometimes to secure private areas for men and women, and I don't think either us would disagree that making a 3rd or 4th category is practical in the least.

    As far as sexual harassment due the presence of gays the report has this to say:

    Most concerns we heard about showers and bathrooms were based on stereotype—that gay men and lesbians will behave as predators in these situations, or that permittinghomosexual and heterosexual people of the same sex to shower together is tantamount to allowing men and women to shower together. However, common sense tells us that asituation in which people of different anatomy shower together is different from a situation in which people of the same anatomy but different sexual orientations shower together. The former is uncommon and unacceptable to almost everyone in this country; the latter is a situation most in the military have already experienced. Indeed, the survey results indicate 50% of Service members recognize they have already had the experience of sharing bathroom facilities with someone they believed to be gay.31 This is also a situation resembling what now exists in hundreds of thousands of college dorms, college and high school gyms, professional sports locker rooms, police and fire stations, and athletic clubs around the nation. And, as one gay former Service member told us, to fit in, co-exist, and conform to social norms, gay men have learned to avoid making heterosexuals feel uncomfortable or threatened in these situations.
    Now what I expect is a comparably smooth transition in comparison the end of racial segregation and the introduction of women into the regular service, and their continued increased pretense throughout the service. That is because, as the survey showed, many of the US military knows someone who is gay within their unit. So many servicemen are already serving with what are all for practical purposes openly gay individuals. Also unlike when racial or gender segregation ended, there will no new introductions into a unit. A man, who is uncomfortable with gays to one degree or another, who suddenly discovers his buddy is gay, is less likely to cause problems about it. Why? Because he knows his buddy, they have a history and a trust built up over time, unlike a racist for example who suddenly comes into work one day and finds several black Soldiers, whose he never met before and has no relationship with, in his office or unit.

    http://www.armytimes.com/news/2010/1...litary-122110/

    Of course it won't be entirely smooth sailing there will be incidents of sexual discrimination, crimes motivated by Soldiers who now see a homosexual in their ranks, and issues of some people leaving the military which will no doubt include a few unquestionably highly valuable Soldiers.

    What I do NOT expect to see is a massive rise in sexual harassment as you predict, specifically because gays are already serving in our military and are being much smaller in number than women or blacks, at least according to the survey's estimates. The survey estimates there are roughly 46,000 homosexuals currently serving in uniform. Now I don't know how many sexual harassment incidents there are a year but I do know that there is no way 46,000 people can commit double or triple the amount of sexual harassment seen in the military. A gay rights groups has an estimate of 66,000 in active duty, or roughly 2% of the total.
    Federal Eye - Eye Opener: Estimate: 66,000 gays in the military

    So you are suggesting that 66,000 people will have double or triple the amount of sexual embarrassments as the roughly 833,000 active duty service members. That means you are suggesting that for every act of sexual harassment committed by a straight service-member, 12.5 homosexuals will commit an act. And thats to keep the numbers even between the two groups. To double, 25 homosexuals will commit an act of sexual harassment for every one straight Soldier, 37.5 for triple. That by the way is a 1250% higher rate of sexual harassment for homosexuals to say even, 2500% higher to double, and 3750% higher to triple.

    If we assume that 10,000 acts are committed every year, that means of those 66,000 gay Soldiers, 125,000 will commit an act to stay even, 250,000 to double, and 375000 to triple. In other words you think its plausible that on average each gay Soldier will commit 3 separate acts of reported sexual harassments, since obviously only reported ones go into those rate educations. If we only assume 1,000 are committed every year than we are up to half of all gay Soldiers committed one reported act.
    Last edited by Wiseone; 12-24-10 at 01:05 AM.

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    Re: DADT cloture passes

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    If the sexual harassment numbers don't go up, I'd be greatly surprised. Afterall, there are a lot of guys out there who will claim sexual harassment from just having to live with a gay dude.

    Harassment claims in general should also go up. This should be expected, since under DADT, it is not in a gay servicemember's best interest to report cases of harassment, despite rules against such harassment already in place, because if proof of their sexuality is found, then they get discharged.
    This I agree with and for the same reasons.

    The rest of what you expect to happen is just based on fears. It is possible, but not likely. Gay men are serving in combat arms units now. Gay men and women are showering/berthing with straight men and women now, and they will not be required to reveal their sexuality openly to anyone or everyone.
    It's based on experience and a familiarity with the system and how combat arms units work.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: DADT cloture passes

    Yawn......


    Neener, neener.

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    Re: DADT cloture passes

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    There will not be separate billets, the DoD has made it clear it follow the recommendations of the "Report of the Comprehensive Review of the Issues Associated with a Repeal of “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell.” Otherwise known as the DADT survey. Pages 12, 13, 14, and 141 will show you exactly how the military will handle the issues of billeting and seperate shower areas, on page 12 where at the bottom under a subsection called Privacy and Cohabitation it reads:



    http://www.defense.gov/home/features...e-hires%29.pdf

    Now that is only an assessment, but I think you'd agree its very accurate. You and I both know how difficult it can be sometimes to secure private areas for men and women, and I don't think either us would disagree that making a 3rd or 4th category is practical in the least.

    As far as sexual harassment due the presence of gays the report has this to say:



    Now what I expect is a comparably smooth transition in comparison the end of racial segregation and the introduction of women into the regular service, and their continued increased pretense throughout the service. That is because, as the survey showed, many of the US military knows someone who is gay within their unit. So many servicemen are already serving with what are all for practical purposes openly gay individuals. Also unlike when racial or gender segregation ended, there will no new introductions into a unit. A man, who is uncomfortable with gays to one degree or another, who suddenly discovers his buddy is gay, is less likely to cause problems about it. Why? Because he knows his buddy, they have a history and a trust built up over time, unlike a racist for example who suddenly comes into work one day and finds several black Soldiers, whose he never met before and has no relationship with, in his office or unit.

    Post-DADT: Racial, sexual integration are guide - Army News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Army Times

    Of course it won't be entirely smooth sailing there will be incidents of sexual discrimination, crimes motivated by Soldiers who now see a homosexual in their ranks, and issues of some people leaving the military which will no doubt include a few unquestionably highly valuable Soldiers.

    What I do NOT expect to see is a massive rise in sexual harassment as you predict, specifically because gays are already serving in our military and are being much smaller in number than women or blacks, at least according to the survey's estimates. The survey estimates there are roughly 46,000 homosexuals currently serving in uniform. Now I don't know how many sexual harassment incidents there are a year but I do know that there is no way 46,000 people can commit double or triple the amount of sexual harassment seen in the military. A gay rights groups has an estimate of 66,000 in active duty, or roughly 2% of the total.
    Federal Eye - Eye Opener: Estimate: 66,000 gays in the military

    So you are suggesting that 66,000 people will have double or triple the amount of sexual embarrassments as the roughly 833,000 active duty service members. That means you are suggesting that for every act of sexual harassment committed by a straight service-member, 12.5 homosexuals will commit an act. And thats to keep the numbers even between the two groups. To double, 25 homosexuals will commit an act of sexual harassment for every one straight Soldier, 37.5 for triple. That by the way is a 1250% higher rate of sexual harassment for homosexuals to say even, 2500% higher to double, and 3750% higher to triple.

    If we assume that 10,000 acts are committed every year, that means of those 66,000 gay Soldiers, 125,000 will commit an act to stay even, 250,000 to double, and 375000 to triple. In other words you think its plausible that on average each gay Soldier will commit 3 separate acts of reported sexual harassments, since obviously only reported ones go into those rate educations. If we only assume 1,000 are committed every year than we are up to half of all gay Soldiers committed one reported act.
    The DoD Has also made it clear that local commander have descesionary authority to make whatever billet arrangements they deem necessary for the good of the command. There's no way in hell that you can say with any amount of certainty, that there will be no seperate billets for gay and straight soldiers.

    I'm starting to wonder why it's such a big to the abolitionists that gay and straight soldiers live in the same barracks. Is it that repressed resentment of all those homophobes out there?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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