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Thread: DADT cloture passes

  1. #491
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    Re: DADT cloture passes

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Having questions about billeting is not the same as not being able to billet with an openly gay person. Gays and straights have been living together, showering together in the military probably for as long as there has been any military. And every person who has joined the military since the inception of DADT should have understood that there was always a chance that they could be showering with a gay person. Whether they are openly gay or not, would not change how they view another man's/woman's body. These are things that should be explained to troops. Not everyone will understand, but it will help to get some to see why such a change only change's the view of a person who feels that a gay guy/girl would be attracted to them, not the potential actions of the gay person. This is especially true of units that already have gay personnel in them. The guys/girls in those units have already been showering/living with gay personnel, with little/no incidents (since, if there were incidents, most likely the gay person would have been put out under DADT). Another thing that would help is ensuring that personnel understand the rules of the military, i.e. sexual harassment, false reports, discrimination, violence, fraternization, and sex on base/in berthing spaces.

    Training and good leadership are key to ensuring that this does happen with as few incidents as possible. Our servicemembers can do this. It is not asking too much from them to understand that those who are against gays serving openly are probably the biggest problem in this whole matter. Their intolerance is what is going to cause most of the issues. Everything else can be dealt with, to a large extent, through rules already in place in the military.
    If they didn't care either way, there wouldn't be any questions...
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  2. #492
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    Re: DADT cloture passes

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    If they didn't care either way, there wouldn't be any questions...
    That's not true. Many are confused about what exactly will happen. And some are even confused about what rules are currently in place or how current rules will apply to homosexuals. There are plenty of bases/places now where sex in the barracks is not exactly cracked down on. But, then again, there are a lot of men who wouldn't think twice about his roommate sleeping with a chick(assuming the roommate is straight) in their room, but who might have an issue with their roommate sleeping with another man in their room.

    And there are a lot of people who see gay men as getting some of the same unfair advantages that women get (yes, I do believe that there are some men, and even some women, who give women unfair advantages based on their gender, of course, I also believe that there are some men and women who expect much more from women than they do men). They don't seem to understand that most of that unfairness stems from gender, not sexuality. Most men who give women an unfair advantage do so because they are attracted to the woman or they feel pity for women or some even believe that if they don't, the woman will cry foul unjustly. Most women who give women an unfair advantage is because of their own dislike of men or some injustice that they are (wrongfully) trying to correct for. It is not based on the fact that the woman might be attracted to them. So it is not logical to assume that most gay men would get that same unfair advantage in most cases just for them being gay.

    In fact, it is much more logical that the gay man will be unfairly expected to be held at a different, higher standard than most straight men (i.e. many who are openly gay will probably see lower evals or lower scores in some areas based solely on prejudices that they are somehow hurting the unit), which could lead, in some cases, to an almost informal DADT policy. The difference would be that revealing your sexuality inadvertently would not get you discharged. And, if the discrimination is blatant enough, then the person could bring charges against the other person without fear of being "found out".
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  3. #493
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    Re: DADT cloture passes

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    [b]That's not true. Many are confused about what exactly will happen. And some are even confused about what rules are currently in place or how current rules will apply to homosexuals. There are plenty of bases/places now where sex in the barracks is not exactly cracked down on. But, then again, there are a lot of men who wouldn't think twice about his roommate sleeping with a chick(assuming the roommate is straight) in their room, but who might have an issue with their roommate sleeping with another man in their room.

    And there are a lot of people who see gay men as getting some of the same unfair advantages that women get (yes, I do believe that there are some men, and even some women, who give women unfair advantages based on their gender, of course, I also believe that there are some men and women who expect much more from women than they do men). They don't seem to understand that most of that unfairness stems from gender, not sexuality. Most men who give women an unfair advantage do so because they are attracted to the woman or they feel pity for women or some even believe that if they don't, the woman will cry foul unjustly. Most women who give women an unfair advantage is because of their own dislike of men or some injustice that they are (wrongfully) trying to correct for. It is not based on the fact that the woman might be attracted to them. So it is not logical to assume that most gay men would get that same unfair advantage in most cases just for them being gay.

    In fact, it is much more logical that the gay man will be unfairly expected to be held at a different, higher standard than most straight men (i.e. many who are openly gay will probably see lower evals or lower scores in some areas based solely on prejudices that they are somehow hurting the unit), which could lead, in some cases, to an almost informal DADT policy. The difference would be that revealing your sexuality inadvertently would not get you discharged. And, if the discrimination is blatant enough, then the person could bring charges against the other person without fear of being "found out".
    It will be cracked down on when those sexual acts violate the UCMJ.

    You're just rambling on about nothing. You don't have a clue what's going to happen and most of your suggestions aren't supported by actual data. I think your fairytale version of what's going to go down is far from what's going to happen in the real world.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: DADT cloture passes

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    It will be cracked down on when those sexual acts violate the UCMJ.

    You're just rambling on about nothing. You don't have a clue what's going to happen and most of your suggestions aren't supported by actual data. I think your fairytale version of what's going to go down is far from what's going to happen in the real world.
    So ironic.
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    Re: DADT cloture passes

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    So ironic.
    Don't you understand? Gays, when allowed to serve openly, will go around in fishnets and dry-hump their commanding officers. Because that's what "being open" means!

    Also, there's no regulations against that. No dress code or behavioral codes or anything.
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    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: DADT cloture passes

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    So ironic.
    Oh? tell us exactly what changes are going to be made to military regulations and laws, because of the abolition of DADT. Be sure and support your contentions with some sorta data. Perhaps you can use your knowledge of DoD regulations to support your comments?

    The housing issues that the DoD study says exist, are the same issues that I've predicted. I've been called a liar and a homophobe numerous times for my trouble, yet the DADT Bible proves my point. Care to one-up that one?

    The DADT Bible also shows that 38% of the members of the Marine Corps say they will get out, if DADT is abolished. Can we really afford to lose 38% of the Marine Corps? Ready for national conscription?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  7. #497
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    Re: DADT cloture passes

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    It will be cracked down on when those sexual acts violate the UCMJ.

    You're just rambling on about nothing. You don't have a clue what's going to happen and most of your suggestions aren't supported by actual data. I think your fairytale version of what's going to go down is far from what's going to happen in the real world.
    I would think in this day and age, most of those sex acts violate article 125 at least at times. So why are we not seeing this crackdown already?
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    Re: DADT cloture passes

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Don't you understand? Gays, when allowed to serve openly, will go around in fishnets and dry-hump their commanding officers. Because that's what "being open" means!

    Also, there's no regulations against that. No dress code or behavioral codes or anything.
    That defines the Leftist argument. The facts don't support your ideas, so you go straight for the rediculous.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: DADT cloture passes

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I would think in this day and age, most of those sex acts violate article 125 at least at times. So why are we not seeing this crackdown already?
    It already is. It isn't only applicable to homosexual sex.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  10. #500
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    Re: DADT cloture passes

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    It already is. It isn't only applicable to homosexual sex.
    No, but it will be more likely to happen when it is homosexual sex than heterosexual sex. One is viewed by most to be acceptable. Heck, many see it as if they could, they would. Two men getting together though (and yes, I believe the most issues will come from men, not women) is viewed as unacceptable, wrong, immoral, and/or icky by many straight men. They are much more likely to ignore a roommate having sex with a woman than they are to ignore a roommate having sex with a man. And, even if they did have issues with their roommate having sex with a woman in their room, they are much more likely to simply talk to the guy about the issue than to turn him in if they do not view the act as wrong, but just inappropriate. Not everyone will be like this, but many, who are likely to be uncomfortable with homosexuals in the first place, would do as I described.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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