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Thread: DADT cloture passes

  1. #481
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    Re: DADT cloture passes

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron River View Post
    If someone asks you what 2+2 is and you say “H”; that isn’t the answer, is it?? You said something, but isn’t an answer.



    In a spirit of fairness I ask why it is fair for homosexuals to shower with me but it isn’t allowed for me to shower with the lady nurses? As far your habit of staring at the guy next to you’s junk you might try to break that habit before you shower with a squid of combat troops. They might stomp you down the drain pipe.
    Gay guys have been showering with straight guys and other gay guys since high school or possibly earlier. And vice versa. Gay girls have been showering with straight girls and gay girls since high school or possibly earlier, and vice versa. Guys and girls, men and women do not normally shower together unvoluntarily, in the US. It is not because of the sexuality or presumed sexuality that these groups do not shower together. It is because of our modest and Puritan-influenced culture.

    If there were nudists in the military, they could most likely shower with either sex and have no issues because most actual nudists do not view the naked human body as a sexual object normally. It is our issues (modesty) with what the majority of the US associates the human body with that makes us equate naked opposite sex body almost every time with sex. Men and women have been taught that it is not right for a man to see a woman that he is not intimate with naked, nor is it right for a woman to see a man that she is not intimate with naked. We have essentially been taught that the naked human body is a sexual object most of our lives, as heterosexuals.

    But, for gay people, they wouldn't really be getting the same message. We don't teach our children that it is wrong for people of the same sex to see us naked, not for those of the same sex in a person's peer group. In fact, we normally force every school age child/teen to shower together with members of their same sex whenever they participate in group sports. Nothing sexual is seen about men or women showering together, normally. Since there is no assumed intimacy, then the message is that a man in front of a man naked is not sexual, normally, just like a woman in front of a woman naked is not sexual, normally.
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  2. #482
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    Re: DADT cloture passes

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron River View Post
    In a spirit of fairness I ask why it is fair for homosexuals to shower with me but it isn’t allowed for me to shower with the lady nurses?
    When you can knock up a guy, then you can talk. Until then, they are not comparable situations.

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    Re: DADT cloture passes

    I love how people who are saying it's unfair gay's get to shower with them, but they don't get to shower if women. Like it's some big freaking awesome thing to get to shower with them. Here's a hint, gays aren't interested in straight people.
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  4. #484
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    Re: DADT cloture passes

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Gay guys have been showering with straight guys and other gay guys since high school or possibly earlier. And vice versa. Gay girls have been showering with straight girls and gay girls since high school or possibly earlier, and vice versa. Guys and girls, men and women do not normally shower together unvoluntarily, in the US. It is not because of the sexuality or presumed sexuality that these groups do not shower together. It is because of our modest and Puritan-influenced culture.

    If there were nudists in the military, they could most likely shower with either sex and have no issues because most actual nudists do not view the naked human body as a sexual object normally. It is our issues (modesty) with what the majority of the US associates the human body with that makes us equate naked opposite sex body almost every time with sex. Men and women have been taught that it is not right for a man to see a woman that he is not intimate with naked, nor is it right for a woman to see a man that she is not intimate with naked. We have essentially been taught that the naked human body is a sexual object most of our lives, as heterosexuals.

    But, for gay people, they wouldn't really be getting the same message. We don't teach our children that it is wrong for people of the same sex to see us naked, not for those of the same sex in a person's peer group. In fact, we normally force every school age child/teen to shower together with members of their same sex whenever they participate in group sports. Nothing sexual is seen about men or women showering together, normally. Since there is no assumed intimacy, then the message is that a man in front of a man naked is not sexual, normally, just like a woman in front of a woman naked is not sexual, normally.
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    When you can knock up a guy, then you can talk. Until then, they are not comparable situations.
    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    I love how people who are saying it's unfair gay's get to shower with them, but they don't get to shower if women. Like it's some big freaking awesome thing to get to shower with them. Here's a hint, gays aren't interested in straight people.


    But...the sacred study tells a different story. How do you argue against that fact? And irrefutable fact, according to the DADT abolitionists.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: DADT cloture passes

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    But...the sacred study tells a different story. How do you argue against that fact? And irrefutable fact, according to the DADT abolitionists.
    It doesn't tell a different story than what I posted. Gays would not have made up a significant part of that study (as in the respondants). Which means most of those answers were based on how straights see naked bodies.

    Although I did forget to add this part, since many straight people view nakedness as sexual, then they mistakenly correlate that to their sexuality, instead of what they have been taught about opposite sex nakedness. This means that many view the issue of gays showering with straights of the same sex as a sexual issue, since to many straight people, showering with the people that they would be attracted to is prohibited because of the sexual nature of being naked around the opposite sex, not the reality that it is a modesty issue.

    Now, those that answered the polls were basing their beliefs that their would be shower problems on the premise that if they were allowed to shower with the opposite sex (who they are attracted to) then they would find the situation sexual, so therefore, gays showering with the same sex must find that situation sexual. What they (and you) don't understand, is that being naked or seeing someone that you may be attracted to naked does not have to be sexual. Once people could get over this issue, then we might get somewhere. Most gay men and women have been showering with straight men and women since they were children or at least teens. If they haven't tried anything since that time, it is highly unlikely that they will try anything in the military just because they can serve openly.

    Now, yes, there will probably be some issues with some straight men (and possibly women, but less likely) that will beat up or worse an openly gay person because they are paranoid that the gay guy (girl) is lusting after their naked body, but these issues can actually happen with DADT in place, depending on the level of a person's paranoia. General military training and discipline can keep most of these issues from becoming problems, and good leadership can cut them down to very small numbers. They will never be eliminated, even with rules completely banning gays.
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    Re: DADT cloture passes

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    But...the sacred study tells a different story. How do you argue against that fact? And irrefutable fact, according to the DADT abolitionists.
    Where does the study state that gays want to hit on straight people?
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

  7. #487
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    Re: DADT cloture passes

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    It doesn't tell a different story than what I posted. Gays would not have made up a significant part of that study (as in the respondants). Which means most of those answers were based on how straights see naked bodies.

    Although I did forget to add this part, since many straight people view nakedness as sexual, then they mistakenly correlate that to their sexuality, instead of what they have been taught about opposite sex nakedness. This means that many view the issue of gays showering with straights of the same sex as a sexual issue, since to many straight people, showering with the people that they would be attracted to is prohibited because of the sexual nature of being naked around the opposite sex, not the reality that it is a modesty issue.

    Now, those that answered the polls were basing their beliefs that their would be shower problems on the premise that if they were allowed to shower with the opposite sex (who they are attracted to) then they would find the situation sexual, so therefore, gays showering with the same sex must find that situation sexual. What they (and you) don't understand, is that being naked or seeing someone that you may be attracted to naked does not have to be sexual. Once people could get over this issue, then we might get somewhere. Most gay men and women have been showering with straight men and women since they were children or at least teens. If they haven't tried anything since that time, it is highly unlikely that they will try anything in the military just because they can serve openly.

    Now, yes, there will probably be some issues with some straight men (and possibly women, but less likely) that will beat up or worse an openly gay person because they are paranoid that the gay guy (girl) is lusting after their naked body, but these issues can actually happen with DADT in place, depending on the level of a person's paranoia. General military training and discipline can keep most of these issues from becoming problems, and good leadership can cut them down to very small numbers. They will never be eliminated, even with rules completely banning gays.
    Ok, but how do you argue with the irrefutable DoD study that says that most service members--regardless of their opinion on DADT--have questions regarding housing arrangements. Those numbers probably go into the low to mid 90's.

    If 90% of the military has a question about billeting, then that is going to have to be dealt with. It's an obvious issue. Gays and straights are going to be billeted together. The DoD study--The Bible of the anti-DADT folks--indicates that it won't happen. If this issue isn't dealt with properly, it will have a negative effect on our armed forces.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Where does the study state that gays want to hit on straight people?
    Ok, but first you show me where I even said that. Thanks in advance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: DADT cloture passes

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Ok, but how do you argue with the irrefutable DoD study that says that most service members--regardless of their opinion on DADT--have questions regarding housing arrangements. Those numbers probably go into the low to mid 90's.

    If 90% of the military has a question about billeting, then that is going to have to be dealt with. It's an obvious issue. Gays and straights are going to be billeted together. The DoD study--The Bible of the anti-DADT folks--indicates that it won't happen. If this issue isn't dealt with properly, it will have a negative effect on our armed forces.
    They'll get over having the sleep next to the "queer faggot" the same way they got used to sleeping next to the "dumb nigger" back in the 50s. And if they don't, they may get out, but the military will be a better place for it.

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    Re: DADT cloture passes

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Ok, but how do you argue with the irrefutable DoD study that says that most service members--regardless of their opinion on DADT--have questions regarding housing arrangements. Those numbers probably go into the low to mid 90's.

    If 90% of the military has a question about billeting, then that is going to have to be dealt with. It's an obvious issue. Gays and straights are going to be billeted together. The DoD study--The Bible of the anti-DADT folks--indicates that it won't happen. If this issue isn't dealt with properly, it will have a negative effect on our armed forces.
    Having questions about billeting is not the same as not being able to billet with an openly gay person. Gays and straights have been living together, showering together in the military probably for as long as there has been any military. And every person who has joined the military since the inception of DADT should have understood that there was always a chance that they could be showering with a gay person. Whether they are openly gay or not, would not change how they view another man's/woman's body. These are things that should be explained to troops. Not everyone will understand, but it will help to get some to see why such a change only change's the view of a person who feels that a gay guy/girl would be attracted to them, not the potential actions of the gay person. This is especially true of units that already have gay personnel in them. The guys/girls in those units have already been showering/living with gay personnel, with little/no incidents (since, if there were incidents, most likely the gay person would have been put out under DADT). Another thing that would help is ensuring that personnel understand the rules of the military, i.e. sexual harassment, false reports, discrimination, violence, fraternization, and sex on base/in berthing spaces.

    Training and good leadership are key to ensuring that this does happen with as few incidents as possible. Our servicemembers can do this. It is not asking too much from them to understand that those who are against gays serving openly are probably the biggest problem in this whole matter. Their intolerance is what is going to cause most of the issues. Everything else can be dealt with, to a large extent, through rules already in place in the military.
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    Re: DADT cloture passes

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    They'll get over having the sleep next to the "queer faggot" the same way they got used to sleeping next to the "dumb nigger" back in the 50s.

    What are you going to say when most of the soldiers that don't want to sleep next to the, "queer faggot", are, "homophobe niggers"? Are you saying that the military would be better off with fewer black soldiers?

    Nevermind that silly arguement; gay and straight soldiers aren't going to be forced to share billets. It just ain't gonna happen. If the 80-90% of our service get out and there is a draft, that won't be good for our military.





    And if they don't, they may get out, but the military will be a better place for it.
    Why does it always sound like this is nothing more than an attempt to smoke out all the, "bigots"?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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