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DADT cloture passes

apdst said:
The British Army doesn't have a sexual harassment prevetion policy that the United States does, hence the reason that 99% of the female soldiers in the British Army have reported some kind of sexual harassment. Want to adopt a lax sexual harassment policy like the Brits have?
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Oh, perhaps you'd like link to where you got that 99% number?
(hint: it was probably your ass)
edit: (but don't worry, with DADT being repealed it's ok for you to link your ass :lamo sometimes I crack myself up)

Next, show us the same figures for the US military, in the spirit of fairness.
 
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The 99 % is from a 2006 study and is legit sorta. Sexual harassment rife in armed forces | UK news | The Guardian

Sexual harassment is rife in the armed forces, with 99% of servicewomen reporting they had been subjected to some form of sexual remark or material by male colleagues in the past year. One in seven - 15% - say they have had a "particularly upsetting" experience over the same period, ranging from sexually explicit comments through to sexual assault.
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However:

The research is the first phase in an action plan against sexual harassment that the armed forces have agreed to implement, and reflects an acknowledgment by senior MoD officials that a cultural change is needed.
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So it does appear the claim that they have no sexual harassment policy is in error, though I cannot find proof one way or the other.
 
apdst said:
I'm saying that adjustments are going to be made and housing will be one of those adjustments and when soldiers stop living together, unit cohesion will suffer.



100% of the sexual harassment issues exist, because male and female soldiers serve together.




If a modified version of DADT were left in place, there would be no gay/straight sexual harassment problems. Since that's not going to be the case, the problems are going to exist.


I'm not saying any of that. All I'm saying, is that there are going to be diffferent housing arrangements within our military.
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They won't stop living together, no matter how much you or others may want this to happen. Any objects can easily be met with the fact that straights have been living with gays the entire time. There is no proof that the majority of gay men or gay women would view a naked body of the gender that they are attracted to as a sexual object and/or not be able to act professionally while showering with them. The same cannot be said about males and females showering together. Our society does not view men and women together, in potentially naked situations, as normal.
 
Redress said:
The 99 % is from a 2006 study and is legit sorta. Sexual harassment rife in armed forces | UK news | The Guardian



However:



So it does appear the claim that they have no sexual harassment policy is in error, though I cannot find proof one way or the other.
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They do have a "branch" (I'm guessing that it is similar to a department?) that is dedicated to equality and diversity, so I'd bet that they have some policies concerning it.

Lt. Col. Colin Bulleid of the British Army Equality and Diversity Policy Branch told The Independent last year
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British Army Actively Recruits Gay Soldiers
 
roguenuke said:
Also, I don't think that it is true that The British Army doesn't have a sexual harassment prevention policy in place at all. It may look different than the US's, but I highly doubt that they don't have one at all.
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Obviously it's not effective. Right?

But, if you'll go back and re-read my post, you'll see that I never said that the Brits didn't have a policy in place.
 
Deuce said:
Oh, perhaps you'd like link to where you got that 99% number?
(hint: it was probably your ass)
edit: (but don't worry, with DADT being repealed it's ok for you to link your ass :lamo sometimes I crack myself up)

Next, show us the same figures for the US military, in the spirit of fairness.
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Sure, Deuce. I'd love to show you.

WASHINGTON — One-third of women in the military and 6 percent of men said they were sexually harassed, according to the latest Pentagon survey on the issue.Military sexual harassment data released - U.S. news - Military - msnbc.com
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Long way from 99%. Eh, mate?
 
roguenuke said:
They won't stop living together
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Actually, they will, no matter how much you want it to be so.


no matter how much you or others may want this to happen. Any objects can easily be met with the fact that straights have been living with gays the entire time. There is no proof that the majority of gay men or gay women would view a naked body of the gender that they are attracted to as a sexual object and/or not be able to act professionally while showering with them. The same cannot be said about males and females showering together. Our society does not view men and women together, in potentially naked situations, as normal.
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I don't want them to stop living together. I'm saying that they will have seperate quarters, because that's how the system is set up and that's why I would have preferred to see DADT remain in place, lift the ban on gays, keep soldiers living together in the same billets and save unit cohesion. When soldiers stop living together, units will have as much cohesion, loyalty and teamwork as a night time stock crew from Wal-Mart.
 
apdst said:
Actually, they will, no matter how much you want it to be so.

I don't want them to stop living together. I'm saying that they will have seperate quarters, because that's how the system is set up and that's why I would have preferred to see DADT remain in place, lift the ban on gays, keep soldiers living together in the same billets and save unit cohesion. When soldiers stop living together, units will have as much cohesion, loyalty and teamwork as a night time stock crew from Wal-Mart.
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Why do you keep saying there will be seperate quarters? Did you read this somewhere? The only thing I've read from the military is that there will not be seperate showers. Can't imagine why they wouldn't carry that policy over to living quarters.
 
Kelzie said:
Why do you keep saying there will be seperate quarters? Did you read this somewhere? The only thing I've read from the military is that there will not be seperate showers. Can't imagine why they wouldn't carry that policy over to living quarters.
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You have been able to find out more than I have then. I can't find any plan yet on how this will be implemented, other than the process is expected to take about a year.
 
apdst said:
I think the issues will be dealt with, but not in the way that the DADT abolitionists expect. My view on billetting are example of the procedures that will be put in place to make it easier for gays and straights to serve together.
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I agree with that. Nothing ever works as planned and we will need to work our way through this as fits our situation.

On another note - thanks for a serious response to a somewhat snarky post.

Though I am often surprised by the cries of doom around this - not necessarily from you - I think that we have the best military in the world and I think that they can handle this.
 
Slightly more info: Plan for implementing DADT repeal

Go to page 32, copy paste doesn't work so good from this. Recommendation of not being able to assign billets or shower space based on orientation.
 
Kelzie said:
Why do you keep saying there will be seperate quarters? Did you read this somewhere? The only thing I've read from the military is that there will not be seperate showers. Can't imagine why they wouldn't carry that policy over to living quarters.
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Because there will be. Ask you hubby. He'll tell you that gays and straight can't and won't be forced to billet together.

The Commandant of the MArine Corps even said it's not going to happpen.
 
apdst said:
Because there will be. Ask you hubby. He'll tell you that gays and straight can't and won't be forced to billet together.

The Commandant of the MArine Corps even said it's not going to happpen.
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Okay, where did he say that?
 
Yeah, I didn't think so:

Gates also said he now endorses all the recommendations of the Pentagon's working group on "don't ask, don't tell" as the road map for implementation. There will be no special bathroom or housing facilities to accommodate homosexuals, except in special cases. And troops who oppose serving with homosexuals will not be allowed to quit the military before their commitment is up.
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Gates tells troops 'don't ask, don't tell' is still in effect - CNN.com
 
Kelzie said:
Yeah, I didn't think so:

Gates also said he now endorses all the recommendations of the Pentagon's working group on "don't ask, don't tell" as the road map for implementation. There will be no special bathroom or housing facilities to accommodate homosexuals, except in special cases. And troops who oppose serving with homosexuals will not be allowed to quit the military before their commitment is up.
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Gates tells troops 'don't ask, don't tell' is still in effect - CNN.com
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He's saying that, now. When there are too many problems arising from the transition, he will change his tune. Not to mention, he can't control the local policies of various commands.

From Red's link:

13. Does a Service member have the legal right to refuse to shareaccommodations and/or facilities with a gay and lesbian Servicemember?
No.Servicemembersdonothavealegalrighttoreject(orselect)assignmentwithanyotherServicememberwithinsharedmilitaryaccommodationsandfacilities.Inaddition,Servicemembersdonothavethelegalrighttorefuseworkordutyassignmentsbasedonamoralobjectiontoanotherindividual’ssexualorientation.IfaServicememberhasaconcernwithabilletingorworkarrangementforanyreason,heorsheshouldaddressthoseconcernsappropriatelywithintheirchainofcommand.Commandersmayusediscretioninpersonnelassignmentstoberthing,housingandotherfacilitiesto maintain morale, good order, and discipline based on Service policies and space available

Commanders aren't going to sacrifice discipline and order, just to be PC.
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Redress said:
Slightly more info: Plan for implementing DADT repeal

Go to page 32, copy paste doesn't work so good from this. Recommendation of not being able to assign billets or shower space based on orientation.
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From your link...

The Department of Defense prohibit berthing or billeting assignments based on sexual orientation, except that commanders should retain the authority to alter berthing or billeting assignments on an individualized, case-by-case basis, in the interest of maintaining morale, good order, and discipline, consistent with performance of mission.

The Department of Defense prohibit the designation of separate bathroom or bathing facilities based on sexual orientation except that commanders would have the authority to accommodate privacy requests on an individualized, case-by-case basis, in the interest of maintaining morale, good order, and discipline, consistent with performance of mission.
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apdst said:
He's saying that, now. When there are too many problems arising from the transition, he will change his tune. Not to mention, he can't control the local policies of various commands.

From Red's link:


Commanders aren't going to sacrifice discipline and order, just to be PC.
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So that kind of supports what I'm saying. There will not be a policy of seperate billeting. As for these huge issues looming over the horizon, we'll just have to see, won't we?
 
apdst said:
Sure, Deuce. I'd love to show you.



Long way from 99%. Eh, mate?
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So you're comparing "a sexual remark" numbers to "sexual harrassment" numbers.


"A sexual remark" numbers would probably be 99%+ for any group of women.
 
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Kelzie said:
So that kind of supports what I'm saying. There will not be a policy of seperate billeting. As for these huge issues looming over the horizon, we'll just have to see, won't we?
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Except, the implementation plan does say,

The Department of Defense prohibit berthing or billeting assignments based on sexual orientation, except that commanders should retain the authority to alter berthing or billeting assignments on an individualized, case-by-case basis, in the interest of maintaining morale, good order, and discipline, consistent with performance of mission.

Which basically gives local commanders the authority to alter housing arrangements. Lot's of leeway there.




Deuce said:
So you're comparing "a sexual remark" numbers to "sexual harrassment" numbers.


"A sexual remark" numbers would probably be 99%+ for any group of women.
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Allow me to quote the Army's sexual harassment policy, again:

a. Verbal. Examples of verbal sexual harassment may include telling sexual jokes, using sexually explicit profanity,
threats, sexually oriented jody calls, sexual comments, whistling in a sexually suggestive manner, and describing
certain sexual attributes about one’s physical appearance. Verbal sexual harassment may also include using terms of
endearment such as “ honey”, “ babe”, “ sweetheart”, “ dear”, “ stud” or “ hunk” in referring to soldiers, civilian coworkers
or family members.
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So, yes, "sexual remarks", are considered sexual harassment, iin the United States Army.
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Kelzie said:
Okay, where did he say that?
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Right here,

The Commandant of the United States Marine Corps, General James Conway, has concerns about sleeping quarters for Marines in the event that "don't ask don't tell" (DADT) - the military policy that prevents gays and lesbians in the Army, Navy, Marine Corps, Air Force, and Coast Guard from serving openly - is repealed. In the Stars and Stripes article of August 25, 2010 by Kevin Baron "Commandant Repeats Gay Bunking Concerns," General Conway restates his commitment to establishing separate sleeping quarters for homosexual and heterosexual Marines.

Commandant of the Marine Corps Separate Barracks for Gay Marines
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Kelzie said:
That was before the repeal. Anything recent?
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Ya think he changed his mind? Recended any previous statements? Got a link for that?

Without a link to that effect, we can only assume that he stand fast on his August statements.
 
apdst said:
Ya think he changed his mind? Recended any previous statements? Got a link for that?

Without a link to that effect, we can only assume that he stand fast on his August statements.
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I think he was posturing. He doesn't exactly run an autonomous country. He has to follow the rules like the rest of the military.
 
apdst said:
Ya think he changed his mind? Recended any previous statements? Got a link for that?

Without a link to that effect, we can only assume that he stand fast on his August statements.
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I,ll take the Commandants word for it.

<I, and the Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps [Carlton Kent], will personally lead this effort, thus ensuring the respect and dignity due all Marines,” Amos said. “On this matter, we look forward to further demonstrating to the American people the discipline and loyalty that have been the hallmark of the United States Marine Corps for over 235 years.>

Top Marine pledges to
 
Kelzie said:
I think he was posturing. He doesn't exactly run an autonomous country. He has to follow the rules like the rest of the military.
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True and so far, there are no rules saying that he can't make whatever billetting policy he deems fit for his service.
 
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