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Thread: Store owner in critical condition after killing robbery suspects

  1. #71
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    Re: Store owner in critical condition after killing robbery suspects

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Marteau View Post
    Shot them.

    I'm not all I want to be.

    He did what I would have done, and he did what most of us think was the acceptable solution to the situation.

    That doesn't make it right, nor legally justified.


    Now, that raises another question -- to what extent should your life be governed by your laws and society's morals? I could say more, and answer it myself, but hopefully, if I don't do so, we'll have more of a discussion.
    yeah it does make it right and legally justified.



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    Re: Store owner in critical condition after killing robbery suspects

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Interestingly, you've lumped robbery, which in the U.S. is ONLY a crime of violence, with a bunch of non-violent crimes in an attempt to downplay the seriousness of robbery. A robbery here is a serious crime, committed under the threat of violence. It's not just stealing someone's goods, a snatch & grab or petty theft. It's threatening to harm someone unless they give you their belongings. Perhaps there is some confusion with our terminology and yours.

    So, in the U.S., it is commonly understood that if someone waves a gun in your face and threatens to kill you or wound you unless you give him your stuff, that you're allowed to defend yourself up to committing deadly harm. And frankly, in most circles (aside from some people in the northeast who've been indoctrinated with the idea that self-defense is evil), it's approved of.
    Robbery and burglary are more synonymous in the UK than in the US, it seems. With the use of 'robbery' on that list, know that it is something of a blanket term for theft, burglary, and in some cases, certain types of your definition of 'robbery'.

    I might note that the situation at hand would not have been considered 'robbery', but rather 'armed robbery'. According to English law, the force must be explicitly threatened or used to be called anything but 'theft'.

    Anyway, my point was more that one should be extremely wary of using force to counteract crimes that don't use force, and I see a lot of people failing to make that distinction -- that's the heart of my argument.

  3. #73
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    Re: Store owner in critical condition after killing robbery suspects

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Marteau View Post
    Anyway, my point was more that one should be extremely wary of using force to counteract crimes that don't use force, and I see a lot of people failing to make that distinction -- that's the heart of my argument.
    On the contrary, I don't see anyone presenting that argument. What I do see is support of using whatever force necessary to protect a victim in a physically threatening situation, and this I agree with.
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

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    Re: Store owner in critical condition after killing robbery suspects

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    That's a really quaint and convenient way of looking at it when you aren't in a situation where tensions are high and adrenaline is flowing. The fight or flight response is really strong in such situations and people could choose to do either, even at random.
    The robbers choice. They chose to commit armed robbery. There are consequences for that choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    Wait wait... so you're saying if an assailant has a gun and you know his motives are to rob your store, you should always shoot to kill?
    You don't shoot to kill, you shoot to stop the threat. If the end result is death to bad, so sad, it sucks to be them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    Saying you don't sympathize with robbers is not that different from saying they had it coming, especially if you haven't even waited to hear the results on who fired the first shot. If the store owner fired first then it he was he who escalated the danger of the situation, not the robbers.
    I don't and they did. It is the path the robbers chose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    I am surprised you are drawing conclusions without appropriate evidence.
    The evidence is there. If you're too blind to see it, says more about you. Sometimes things are just black and white.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    Your question is a loaded one. It really depends on the situation, but if the person with the gun has specific demands, then they are only using the gun to enforce those demands, and not to kill you. The threat of death is just a device to get you to comply. Robberies almost always go down that way.
    Ahh situational ethics!

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    If someone comes up to me on the street with a gun and demands my wallet, I give them my damn wallet and let them be on their merry way. My response would not be to draw a firearm and shoot at them, potentially committing murder OR getting myself shot back at in the process. You may feel righteous about it, like you have a right to punish them, but that is simply foolish. Your wallet is meaningless compared to your life.
    When robbers pull guns it's not about stuff anymore. It's my life they are playing with and I do not play that game and they forfeited any consideration I should give them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    When it comes to that kind of situation, there are no real guarantees. But if the owner fired first, then he's the one who made the situation more dangerous, not the robbers, and he is to blame for his own injuries as well as the deaths of others.
    Wrong again. It's who is right and who is wrong. Armed robbery is always wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    And AGAIN, I'm saying, that just because someone is holding you at gunpoint does not mean they are necessarily going to shoot you. In fact, complying with their demands will probably lead to you surviving the situation. Your advice of shooting automatically is completely stupid. That just puts you and bystanders at risk.
    Maybe you're willing to rely on their benevolence but not me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    Any police officer with training will tell any member of the public that if someone pulls a gun on them and demands money, to just give over the money and not fight back. You may be trained in how to use a gun but that doesn't mean you are trained in diffusing hostile situations, and just because you have the ability to fire the gun first does not mean you will get out of it alive.
    Not trying to diffuse anything. I would rather rely on my judgment than robbers intentions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    That is just arrogant and stupid.
    Projecting are you?

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    Re: Store owner in critical condition after killing robbery suspects

    Quote Originally Posted by mtlhdtodd View Post
    The robbers choice. They chose to commit armed robbery. There are consequences for that choice.
    Join date of Nov 2009 and you're finally making a post? Welcome to the circus, sir.
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

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    Re: Store owner in critical condition after killing robbery suspects

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    Join date of Nov 2009 and you're finally making a post? Welcome to the circus, sir.
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    Re: Store owner in critical condition after killing robbery suspects

    I remember a guy shot a bad guy in his driveway that had broke in his house and took his wallet off of his kitchen table, probably saw it through an open window, then ran when the owner came running from the back room with his gun,
    So he remembers the bad guy has to be IN your house to justify killing him, so he drags him back inside, then realizes theres a trail of blood from the driveway to inside, so he drags him back outside and told the police he shot him inside, then dragged him outside because he was messing up his carpet.

    whole story came out months later but no one cared, its a southern thing.

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    Re: Store owner in critical condition after killing robbery suspects

    Quote Originally Posted by shades View Post
    I remember a guy shot a bad guy in his driveway that had broke in his house and took his wallet off of his kitchen table, probably saw it through an open window, then ran when the owner came running from the back room with his gun,
    So he remembers the bad guy has to be IN your house to justify killing him, so he drags him back inside, then realizes theres a trail of blood from the driveway to inside, so he drags him back outside and told the police he shot him inside, then dragged him outside because he was messing up his carpet.

    whole story came out months later but no one cared, its a southern thing.
    Interesting. Link?
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

  9. #79
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    Re: Store owner in critical condition after killing robbery suspects

    Quote Originally Posted by shades View Post
    I remember a guy shot a bad guy in his driveway that had broke in his house and took his wallet off of his kitchen table, probably saw it through an open window, then ran when the owner came running from the back room with his gun,
    So he remembers the bad guy has to be IN your house to justify killing him, so he drags him back inside, then realizes theres a trail of blood from the driveway to inside, so he drags him back outside and told the police he shot him inside, then dragged him outside because he was messing up his carpet.

    whole story came out months later but no one cared, its a southern thing.

    That used to be what people would say, "drag 'em inside", but it is stupid; the dragging part is likely going to be obvious.

    In many states this advice, besides being impractical (and likely to get you jailed for tampering with evidence), is antiquated. It depends on the totality of circumstances as to whether it is a righteous shoot in most cases. Many states, like SC and Florida to name two Southern ones, have extended the "Castle" protections to your "curtilage": your yard and outbuildings.

    Shoot 'em and leave 'em where they lay. Don't tamper with evidence.

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  10. #80
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    Re: Store owner in critical condition after killing robbery suspects

    Yay for the good guys! And yay for our right to keep and bear arms!!!!
    *insert profound statement here*

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