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Thread: Store owner in critical condition after killing robbery suspects

  1. #61
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    Re: Store owner in critical condition after killing robbery suspects

    Goshin did a great job of addressing all your points already, but I'll chime in just so you don't think I've lost interest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    That's a really quaint and convenient way of looking at it when you aren't in a situation where tensions are high and adrenaline is flowing. The fight or flight response is really strong in such situations and people could choose to do either, even at random.
    Forgive me for not being sympathetic to the individuals who CREATED the situation by walking in to the store carrying guns with criminal intent. The wrong decision they made was not deciding whether to fight or run, it was deciding to be law breaking hooligans. It’s not the store owner’s fault they weren’t prepared for resistance.

    Wait wait... so you're saying if an assailant has a gun and you know his motives are to rob your store, you should always shoot to kill?
    Yes. Period.

    Saying you don't sympathize with robbers is not that different from saying they had it coming, especially if you haven't even waited to hear the results on who fired the first shot. If the store owner fired first then it he was he who escalated the danger of the situation, not the robbers.
    I don’t sympathize with a lot of people, that doesn’t mean I wish them dead. You’re not paying attention. The store owner firing the first shot is NOT escalation, it’s self-defense and common sense.

    I am surprised you are drawing conclusions without appropriate evidence.
    I’m surprised you’re drawing conclusions about offering passive acquiescence without doing your homework… Your facts are off. I’ll elaborate when addressing the next quote.

    Your question is a loaded one. It really depends on the situation, but if the person with the gun has specific demands, then they are only using the gun to enforce those demands, and not to kill you. The threat of death is just a device to get you to comply. Robberies almost always go down that way.
    Statistics show you are far more likely to survive a violent assault if you defend yourself with a gun. In episodes where a robbery victim was injured, the injury/defense rates were:

    Resisting with a gun 6%
    Did nothing at all 25%
    Resisted with a knife 40%
    Non-violent resistance 45%

    Still want to just stand there while you’re getting a gun pointed at you?

    If someone comes up to me on the street with a gun and demands my wallet, I give them my damn wallet and let them be on their merry way. My response would not be to draw a firearm and shoot at them, potentially committing murder OR getting myself shot back at in the process. You may feel righteous about it, like you have a right to punish them, but that is simply foolish. Your wallet is meaningless compared to your life.
    If someone is already holding a gun, you have no guarantee of surviving, no matter what you do. To quote you: “That's a really quaint and convenient way of looking at it when you aren't in a situation where tensions are high and adrenaline is flowing.”

    When it comes to that kind of situation, there are no real guarantees. But if the owner fired first, then he's the one who made the situation more dangerous, not the robbers, and he is to blame for his own injuries as well as the deaths of others.
    Again, the robbers created the situation. The owner was simply reacting appropriately to a dangerous situation.

    And AGAIN, I'm saying, that just because someone is holding you at gunpoint does not mean they are necessarily going to shoot you. In fact, complying with their demands will probably lead to you surviving the situation. Your advice of shooting automatically is completely stupid. That just puts you and bystanders at risk.
    It does not mean that they are NOT going to shoot you if you comply either. See the above statistic I quoted.

    Any police officer with training will tell any member of the public that if someone pulls a gun on them and demands money, to just give over the money and not fight back. You may be trained in how to use a gun but that doesn't mean you are trained in diffusing hostile situations, and just because you have the ability to fire the gun first does not mean you will get out of it alive.
    See the above statistic.

    That is just arrogant and stupid.
    Thank you for your opinion.
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

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    Re: Store owner in critical condition after killing robbery suspects

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Unlike the UK the US pretty much does not have any sympathy for criminals trying to rob and possibly rape and or kill innocent people.



    If you are capable then the most moral thing to do is to stop the criminal regardless if it cost the criminal his life.


    There is absolutely nothing immoral about killing a scumbag who is threatening you,your family, someone else or your property or lively hood.
    Eh, as a former member of the military, I feel strongly that killing is (almost) never the "moral" option -- only the necessary, and perhaps correct, option, in some cases.

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    Re: Store owner in critical condition after killing robbery suspects

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Marteau View Post
    Eh, as a former member of the military, I feel strongly that killing is (almost) never the "moral" option -- only the necessary, and perhaps correct, option, in some cases.
    Ah! I get to disagree with you. What a relief.

    As a former cop, I think that killing, while it is rarely ever something that sets easily on the mind, is indeed the moral choice when the choice is between 1. Allow criminals to commit violent crime unopposed and escape to strike again, vs 2. shoot them.

    As has been well noted, in these types of scenarios, passive compliance isn't even close to being a guarantor of survival.

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    Re: Store owner in critical condition after killing robbery suspects

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Killing people who pose a threat to other human beings, and demonstrate this threat through their actions, is a difficult, but commendable, action.
    I don't know if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me.
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    Re: Store owner in critical condition after killing robbery suspects

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Ah! I get to disagree with you. What a relief.

    As a former cop, I think that killing, while it is rarely ever something that sets easily on the mind, is indeed the moral choice when the choice is between 1. Allow criminals to commit violent crime unopposed and escape to strike again, vs 2. shoot them.

    As has been well noted, in these types of scenarios, passive compliance isn't even close to being a guarantor of survival.
    Unfortunately, I'm afraid we WILL have to be in agreement again.

    To be honest, from what I've heard of the area this took place in, a violent crime may have been committed, whereas if someone tries to rob you in, say, Gloucester, violence is quite rare -- which leads me to say that the shop keeper is more justified than I originally believed.

    If that wasn't clear, I agree that deadly force ought be used to stop other violence -- but in the event of a robbery, or criminal substance abuse, treason, embezzlement, extorion, etc. (all of which are crimes, and all of which make criminals of the perpetrators), force should NOT be used. I hear a lot of people here saying, if you find a criminal committing a crime, shoot him. And I think that many of those people don't understand the gravity of death there.

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    Re: Store owner in critical condition after killing robbery suspects

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Marteau View Post
    Eh, as a former member of the military,
    I was in the military too,I was an 11b(infantry) and 11b(mechanized infantry), I do not see what military service has to do with killing those who would attempt threaten your life to get what they want.

    I feel strongly that killing is (almost) never the "moral" option -- only the necessary, and perhaps correct, option, in some cases.
    If it is necessary and correct then killing is indeed moral. Like taking out a robber,attempted rapist or killer, executing a scumbag on death row or some other valid reason for killing someone else.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

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    Re: Store owner in critical condition after killing robbery suspects

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    I was in the military too,I was an 11b(infantry) and 11b(mechanized infantry), I do not see what military service has to do with killing those who would attempt threaten your life to get what they want.


    If it is necessary and correct then killing is indeed moral. Like taking out a robber,attempted rapist or killer, executing a scumbag on death row or some other valid reason for killing someone else.
    Read my post above yours, I suspect we agree more than you know.


    As well, I included the bit about the military as proof that I'm not some sort of pacifist hippy-type saying "killing's evil, maaaaaan".
    Last edited by Le Marteau; 12-21-10 at 12:50 AM.

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    Re: Store owner in critical condition after killing robbery suspects

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Marteau View Post
    Unfortunately, I'm afraid we WILL have to be in agreement again.

    To be honest, from what I've heard of the area this took place in, a violent crime may have been committed, whereas if someone tries to rob you in, say, Gloucester, violence is quite rare -- which leads me to say that the shop keeper is more justified than I originally believed.

    If that wasn't clear, I agree that deadly force ought be used to stop other violence -- but in the event of a robbery, or criminal substance abuse, treason, embezzlement, extorion, etc. (all of which are crimes, and all of which make criminals of the perpetrators), force should NOT be used. I hear a lot of people here saying, if you find a criminal committing a crime, shoot him. And I think that many of those people don't understand the gravity of death there.
    Well, of course one doesn't normally shoot non-violent criminals. Bad sport, old chap. Sitting ducks, wot?

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    Re: Store owner in critical condition after killing robbery suspects

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    I don't know if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me.
    Well. Perhaps you should reread until you do.

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    Re: Store owner in critical condition after killing robbery suspects

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Marteau View Post
    If that wasn't clear, I agree that deadly force ought be used to stop other violence -- but in the event of a robbery, or criminal substance abuse, treason, embezzlement, extorion, etc. (all of which are crimes, and all of which make criminals of the perpetrators), force should NOT be used. I hear a lot of people here saying, if you find a criminal committing a crime, shoot him. And I think that many of those people don't understand the gravity of death there.
    Interestingly, you've lumped robbery, which in the U.S. is ONLY a crime of violence, with a bunch of non-violent crimes in an attempt to downplay the seriousness of robbery. A robbery here is a serious crime, committed under the threat of violence. It's not just stealing someone's goods, a snatch & grab or petty theft. It's threatening to harm someone unless they give you their belongings. Perhaps there is some confusion with our terminology and yours.

    So, in the U.S., it is commonly understood that if someone waves a gun in your face and threatens to kill you or wound you unless you give him your stuff, that you're allowed to defend yourself up to committing deadly harm. And frankly, in most circles (aside from some people in the northeast who've been indoctrinated with the idea that self-defense is evil), it's approved of.

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