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Thread: Store owner in critical condition after killing robbery suspects

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    Re: Store owner in critical condition after killing robbery suspects

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    If they didn’t want to kill anyone, the way out of the store is always faster than staying and exchanging shots.
    That's a really quaint and convenient way of looking at it when you aren't in a situation where tensions are high and adrenaline is flowing. The fight or flight response is really strong in such situations and people could choose to do either, even at random.

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    No hypocrisy whatsoever. The store owner was defending himself against armed assailants. No one in their right mind waits to see if someone with a gun is going to shoot them first.
    Wait wait... so you're saying if an assailant has a gun and you know his motives are to rob your store, you should always shoot to kill?

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    Surprise is a huge tactical advantage. Moreover, why should I sympathize with robbers who knowingly broke the law and were held to account when the store owner met force with force. Color me broken hearted that these BGs won’t be victimizing or shooting anyone else. Btw, I never said they "had it coming." :2razz
    Saying you don't sympathize with robbers is not that different from saying they had it coming, especially if you haven't even waited to hear the results on who fired the first shot. If the store owner fired first then it he was he who escalated the danger of the situation, not the robbers.

    I am surprised you are drawing conclusions without appropriate evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    Immaterial. Again, will you wait to be shot before you fight back when someone pulls a gun on you?
    Your question is a loaded one. It really depends on the situation, but if the person with the gun has specific demands, then they are only using the gun to enforce those demands, and not to kill you. The threat of death is just a device to get you to comply. Robberies almost always go down that way.

    If someone comes up to me on the street with a gun and demands my wallet, I give them my damn wallet and let them be on their merry way. My response would not be to draw a firearm and shoot at them, potentially committing murder OR getting myself shot back at in the process. You may feel righteous about it, like you have a right to punish them, but that is simply foolish. Your wallet is meaningless compared to your life.

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    What guarantee did the owner have that he would live if he gave up his property? Also, it can still be ruled self-defense if he fired first. I suggest you review your laws.
    When it comes to that kind of situation, there are no real guarantees. But if the owner fired first, then he's the one who made the situation more dangerous, not the robbers, and he is to blame for his own injuries as well as the deaths of others.

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    No one is saying that we want to shoot anyone we please. I’m not advocating a Wild West scenario. AGAIN, I’m simply stating that when someone approaches you in a threatening manner with a gun, you DON’T wait. That hesitation can be the difference between you living and dying. Self-defense is NOT using my gun as I please.
    And AGAIN, I'm saying, that just because someone is holding you at gunpoint does not mean they are necessarily going to shoot you. In fact, complying with their demands will probably lead to you surviving the situation. Your advice of shooting automatically is completely stupid. That just puts you and bystanders at risk.

    Any police officer with training will tell any member of the public that if someone pulls a gun on them and demands money, to just give over the money and not fight back. You may be trained in how to use a gun but that doesn't mean you are trained in diffusing hostile situations, and just because you have the ability to fire the gun first does not mean you will get out of it alive.

    That is just arrogant and stupid.

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    Re: Store owner in critical condition after killing robbery suspects

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Been there, done that, but in America we do not consider the police to be the sole custodians of the public safety. All American citizens are responsible for helping protect themselves and their community. American citizens have citizen arrest powers, including the right to use force in carrying out a citizen's arrest under certain circumstances. Americans have the Constitutional right to be armed, and the established tradition of defending self and community from human predators.

    Makes me wanna yell OO-FRICKIN'-RAH about right here, how 'bout you guys...
    Not me, but that's only because you would not be able to hear me, since this is an internet forum, and there are no microphones here. I will thank your post instead.
    Last edited by danarhea; 12-20-10 at 09:01 PM.
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    Re: Store owner in critical condition after killing robbery suspects

    The store owner's actions are defensible, but killing other men (even in self defense) is always at best a necessary evil.
    If you notice something good in yourself, give credit to God, not to yourself, but be certain the evil you commit is always your own and yours to acknowledge.

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    Re: Store owner in critical condition after killing robbery suspects

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post

    Wait wait... so you're saying if an assailant has a gun and you know his motives are to rob your store, you should always shoot to kill?
    You always shoot to kill. Well, legally you shoot to "stop", but pragmatically it is the same thing. Center mass of the torso. Shooting to wound is legally dubious and tactically stupid.



    Saying you don't sympathize with robbers is not that different from saying they had it coming, especially if you haven't even waited to hear the results on who fired the first shot. If the store owner fired first then it he was he who escalated the danger of the situation, not the robbers.

    I am surprised you are drawing conclusions without appropriate evidence.
    I'll say it: they had it coming. They deserved it the instant they entered the store with guns drawn and criminal intent. I don't care who shot first. I hope the store owner did; if he's smart and quick, he did.



    Your question is a loaded one. It really depends on the situation, but if the person with the gun has specific demands, then they are only using the gun to enforce those demands, and not to kill you. The threat of death is just a device to get you to comply. Robberies almost always go down that way.
    No they don't. Actually these days MANY armed robberies end in murder.





    When it comes to that kind of situation, there are no real guarantees. But if the owner fired first, then he's the one who made the situation more dangerous, not the robbers, and he is to blame for his own injuries as well as the deaths of others.
    No, the owner is not to blame. That's like blaming the RAPE VICTIM for the rape.


    And AGAIN, I'm saying, that just because someone is holding you at gunpoint does not mean they are necessarily going to shoot you. In fact, complying with their demands will probably lead to you surviving the situation. Your advice of shooting automatically is completely stupid. That just puts you and bystanders at risk.
    You don't know their intentions. Robbers often kill cooperating victims. It happens often. It happened to my friend. Stats say it is getting more and more common.

    Any police officer with training will tell any member of the public that if someone pulls a gun on them and demands money, to just give over the money and not fight back. You may be trained in how to use a gun but that doesn't mean you are trained in diffusing hostile situations, and just because you have the ability to fire the gun first does not mean you will get out of it alive.
    Antiquated. This was the standard advice 30 years ago. Now, lots of modern cops are telling people that if they are at a disadvantage (ie criminal has them covered) to cooperate UP TO the point that the criminal wants to tie them up or take them somewhere. Statistically, if they tie you up or take you off, you're usually DEAD.

    When they entered a store with drawn guns and criminal intent, putting innocent lives at risk, putting "get money!" above the lives of others, they forfeited any right to keep on breathing. I'm glad they are dead. The only way the outcome could be better is if the store owner had ducked quicker and not gotten shot. I consider him a hero. Because of him, a few potential murderers are gone from society, and maybe a few others will think twice before taking up the gun with criminal intent.

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    Re: Store owner in critical condition after killing robbery suspects

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Marteau View Post
    Mind that in some situations, I do agree, and that from what I've heard of the particular area in which the crime was committed, this may be approaching one of those situations where that action was justified, or atleast permissible.

    However, I do think that, if intent on finding a higher morality in the pursuit of bringing justice to criminals (which is absolutely a noble pursuit), one should join the police force, or some branch of the justice department.

    Vigilante justice is sometimes justified, and often times not.
    Indeed; however, this is utterly in the matters of intention, not a question of vigilante attitudes that need to be put down if I may be so bold...but, rather, a question of survival, that renders no quarter in the noble pursuit of making it home to your wife and children.
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    Re: Store owner in critical condition after killing robbery suspects

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron River View Post
    What do you thing the percent of criminals is who don’t have a gun on them when the commit their crime of choice?
    Fairly high, if you take property crimes into consideration. For instance, most car thieves, burglars, etc., don't carry firearms. The percentage of criminals who commit a crime involving a firearm (looking at the full scheme of offending, from the lowest level up to homicide) is actually relatively small.

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    Re: Store owner in critical condition after killing robbery suspects

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    LIVES should always be more important than THINGS. You let the robbers take everything. Your life is more important than stuff, and so is theirs.
    The problem is that you can never be sure, when a person is pointing a gun at you, that they will be satisfied with your stuff. Your best defense, in that scenario, is to defend yourself from the worst case.

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    Re: Store owner in critical condition after killing robbery suspects

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    Petty thieves never want to actually kill someone. That is criminology 101.
    I've worked with a lot of criminals, and a person who carries a firearm into a store to commit an armed robbery, first and foremost, is not a petty thief. A petty thief is a guy who burglarizes empty houses, who steals stereos out of cars, who breaks out your passenger side window to steal a plainly visible wallet or purse. Petty thieves are non-violent offenders. Petty thieves do everything in their power to avoid being confronted by the owner of the property they are stealing. A petty thief is NOT a person who arms himself, and puts together a group of associates, and commits an aggravated robbery at gunpoint. That ups the ante by a considerable degree. I have years of experience with criminology 101, and I've never seen a single study that suggests what you're trying to say here. Aggravated robbery IS NOT petty thievery.

    And, if you find yourself at the point of a gun, being told to give that person everything you have, I wish you the best with Pacifism 101. Because the fact of the matter is that people don't arm themselves with weapons that they don't have any intention of using.

    A person who starts carrying a gun is a person who's already decided to use that gun.

    In my city, we looked back at the careers of 100 perpetrators of homicide. The first warning sign that we saw with each of those individuals was that they started carrying a weapon. IN fact, almost all had gun charges on their records before they committed a homicide.

    When you combine young men (who have poor impulse control, as a rule) with a loaded gun, the implications are almost always dire, and they go far beyond "petty thievery."

    A person in a store like that who is confronted with a pistol, in my experience, should shoot first and ask questions later. I've seen too many unarmed store owners shot/killed in robberies to say otherwise.

    I appreciate your pacifism, Orion, but I seriously doubt that you've had much face time with violent felons. I have, and the reality is vastly different than what you think it is.
    Last edited by Catz Part Deux; 12-20-10 at 09:36 PM.

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    Re: Store owner in critical condition after killing robbery suspects

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    The store owner's actions are defensible, but killing other men (even in self defense) is always at best a necessary evil.
    Killing people who pose a threat to other human beings, and demonstrate this threat through their actions, is a difficult, but commendable, action.

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    Re: Store owner in critical condition after killing robbery suspects

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    Any police officer with training will tell any member of the public that if someone pulls a gun on them and demands money, to just give over the money and not fight back. You may be trained in how to use a gun but that doesn't mean you are trained in diffusing hostile situations, and just because you have the ability to fire the gun first does not mean you will get out of it alive.

    That is just arrogant and stupid.
    I've never worked with a cop that would give someone this kind of advice. A cop understands that people are required to protect themselves. Cops clean up the mess after the fact, but are rarely able to respond quickly enough to intervene in this kind of situation.

    I worked for a gang unit, and we responded to MANY scenes where business owners or convenience store clerks were shot and killed. In one case, a gang member robbed a little taqueria in our community, shot and killed the owner and an employee and wounded two other employees. His take was $17. I'm pretty sure that I speak for my entire unit when I say that we wish the owner had been armed and could have defended himself and his employees.

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