Vick says he would like a pet dog; anger follows

Hancock said:

Hey listen, most guys have done something in the past of which they are ashamed. It could be anything from participation in gang fights, jumping somebody, vandalism, inflicting pain upon another living being for pleasure, wife-beating (girlfriend-beating) slapping, theft, or whatever.

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Hate to burst your bubble, but "most guys" haven't done the things you list.

Heck! We even get brainwashed into joining the military so that we can go into someone else's land to kill all of the available folks we see. However, when you get back home, if you try to do that same crap again after you get pissed at group of drunks cursing your name from across the street, they call it mass murder. You then don't get medals for heroism. You do however, get to go to prison for life!

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No. We don't get brainwashed so we can kill everybody we see.

So life is full of twists turns and surprises. People can be rehabilitated believe it or not. People change daily. People switch political parties. People change their minds all of the time. We can go from radicals as adolescents to ultra-conservatives at the age of forty.

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Yes, they can be rehabilitated. And after he's served his sentence, he can own a dog. See how simple?

When I was an adolescent, I did some pretty stupid things. Most of the bad things that I did involved vandalism. Some of the things that I did back then makes me shiver at how blatantly stupid they were. I would never do anything like that again. There are things that I've done at 13, that you couldn't pay me to do at 18 years of age. There are things that I've done at 18, that I would absolutely refuse to do at the age of 25 years. There are things that I did at 25, that I would feel quite stupid doing at the age of 40 years.

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Michael Vick cannot use the excuse of a mis-spent youth. He was full cooked when he tortured and killed his animals.

I've known guys who've fought dogs before. They would usually end the conversation with, "Damn man! That's too bad about Bullet. That was a really good dog, though!" Eventually, they mature and they stop fighting dogs on their own. I think Vick, just like all the rest of those fools in the NFL. He just had too much money and too much time on his hands. When you add those features to a slice of immaturity and a slice of adventurism, you've got a pretty stupid-looking sandwich.

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Fighting dogs is animal cruelty of the very worst kind. People who do it are masochistic ***holes.

It's not like Vick was convicted of child abuse or child molestation or something and now he wants to start a nursery school for kids.

He most probably really does like dogs and just wants to prove to both himself and society, that he's not the monster the press portayed him to be.

Let the man have a dog! His dog will most probably eat better than any of us do, today!

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Exceptions to every rule? His sentence says he can't own an animal until 2012. Serve the freakin' sentence!!!

X Factor said:

Nice dig at the military. Right up there with Obama's "air raiding villages and bombing civilians" comment.

Do you even realize how many assumptions you're having to make in order to believe your ridiculous claim that Vick actually likes dogs?

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Better than your one colossal claim that he doesn't! Look the average big-city pound kills numerous amounts of dogs per day due to the irresponsibility of people not neutering or spaying their dogs.

Why not give this guy a chance to both improve upon himself and prove to the world that he's has some good in him, afterall?

Let's not be so prudish!

X Factor said:

Nice dig at the military. Right up there with Obama's "air raiding villages and bombing civilians" comment.

Do you even realize how many assumptions you're having to make in order to believe your ridiculous claim that Vick actually likes dogs?

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Better than your one colossal claim that he doesn't!

Look the average big-city pound kills numerous amounts of dogs per day due to the irresponsibility of people not neutering or spaying their dogs.

Why not give this guy a chance to both improve upon himself and prove to the world that he's has some good in him, afterall?

Let's not be so prudish!

PS.

I'll just bet you that he treats his next dog better than you treat the average debator within this forum!

X Factor said:

Well then, taking your other posts into consideration and looking at it logically, once a child molester has served his punishment, he "should have the full of [his] rights recognized once again", including the ability to open a day care if he wants, right?

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He is most certainly free to apply for a daycare license.

Hancock said:

Better than your one colossal claim that he doesn't! Look the average big-city pound kills numerous amounts of dogs per day due to the irresponsibility of people not neutering or spaying their dogs.

Why not give this guy a chance to both improve upon himself and prove to the world that he's has some good in him, afterall?

Let's not be so prudish!

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*

Hancock said:

Better than your one colossal claim that he doesn't!

*Look the average big-city pound kills numerous amounts of dogs per day due to the irresponsibility of people not neutering or spaying their dogs.

Why not give this guy a chance to both improve upon himself and prove to the world that he's has some good in him, afterall?

Let's not be so prudish!

PS.

I'll just bet you that he treats his next dog better than you treat the average debator within this forum!

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From the Department of Redundancy Department :2razz:

To your point, my claim is supported by Vick's past actions, your assumptions are not. You know what the best predictor of future behavior is? Past behavior.

Hancock said:

Better than your one colossal claim that he doesn't! Look the average big-city pound kills numerous amounts of dogs per day due to the irresponsibility of people not neutering or spaying their dogs.

Why not give this guy a chance to both improve upon himself and prove to the world that he's has some good in him, afterall?

Let's not be so prudish!

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Hey there MaggieD!

First of all, I never said that he shouldn't serve his sentence. Where in the blazes did you get that from?

Also, who is ever "fully cooked"! Life is a continual learning process. We evolve cerbrally throughout our duration upon this planet. Hopefully, our evolution is a positive one and we become more understanding and forgiving as time transpires. Realizing all along that nobody is perfect and that we ourselves as individuals, have commited even the most misdemeanor of crimes against humanity itself, leave alone other animals.

Also war and the military should eventually be outlawed. It's just stupid at this point anymore since far too many enemies and allies alike now have nuclear power. I served in the US military for six years. Trust me, when I tell ya, there's much more brainwashing involved than even care to mention. This is especially so during times of warfare.

PS.

My list of possible bad things done in the past, perhaps during youth, were just examples. Of course, most boys in particular, have done something bad that they either regret introspectively speaking or they've been made to make restitution through some type of socially imposed fine or punishment.

Sometimes we mistreat other human beings worse than we would ever treat other animals. I'm almost always surprised at some PETA member who hates blacks, latinos, or gays!

X Factor said:

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From the Department of Redundancy Department :2razz:

To your point, my claim is supported by Vick's past actions, your assumptions are not. You know what the best predictor of future behavior is? Past behavior.

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Good!

Therefore, once a criminal, always a criminal... Once a thief, always a thief...Once a speeder, always a speeder...Once a repeater, always a repeater...

How's about that for redundant thinking?

PS.

I assumed nothing. I simply offered an alternative approach to how we view people like Vick. He doesn't necessarily have to be the monster that he's been portrayed as being.

Hancock said:

Hey there MaggieD!

First of all, I never said that he shouldn't serve his sentence. Where in the blazes did you get that from?

Also, who is ever "fully cooked"! Life is a continual learning process. We evolve cerbrally throughout our duration upon this planet. Hopefully, our evolution is a positive one and we become more understanding and forgiving as time transpires. Realizing all along that nobody is perfect and that we ourselves as individuals, have commited even the most misdemeanor of crimes against humanity itself, leave alone other animals.

Also war and the military should eventually be outlawed. It's just stupid at this point anymore since far too many enemies and allies alike now have nuclear power. I served in the US military for six years. Trust me, when I tell ya, there's much more brainwashing involved than even care to mention. This is especially so during times of warfare.

PS.

My list of possible bad things done in the past, perhaps during youth, were just examples. Of course, most boys in particular, have done something bad that they either regret introspectively speaking or they've been made to make restitution through some type of socially imposed fine or punishment.

Sometimes we mistreat other human beings worse than we would ever treat other animals. I'm almost always surprised at some PETA member who hates blacks, latinos, or gays!

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I didn't read the whole thread, Hancock. If you believe that he should be able to own a dog after he's served his sentence, I'm in total agreement. And, of course, he will be able to do so.

Ikari said:

You can destroy your own property.

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True, but you will never be charged with a crime for abusing your property or neglecting care to your property.. I have never heard a judge or anybody else complain about the inhumane treatment of animals.

I will also argue it's legal to destroy human life in some situations.. turning off life support systems, in vitro fertilization, abortion, executions, for protection, etc. Of course it's also completely legal to destroy animal life in some situations.. but it's not legal to chop your dog up with a machete because you feel like it.

But we've taken particular interest in the fluffy, cute animals we keep as pets. But they're still property. You can buy and sell it at your leisure. You can't do that with humans.

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What about adoption? It's legal in America to buy children and sell children without an agency, individuals do it at their own leisure.. and it's legal as long as a lawyer is involved. I have seen the ad space for myself.. And I am not trying to argue animals have the same rights or privileged as humans, I am just pointing out the problems I see with your arguments.

Animals don't have any rights, there are privileges we've granted to them due to our emotional attachments; but they are not rights. Only humans possess rights. Cattle and horses are property, and of course they weren't bought and sold with the land because they are not part of land property. They're a certain sect of property. Like your computer. When you sell your house, the computer doesn't come with the price. Animals are essentially the same thing, we've just attached emotion to it.

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All rights are privileges.. I already know you believe rights are inalienable and I don't agree with your philosophy anyway..

The fact is, you can abuse an animal.. you can treat an animal inhumanely.. and those are crimes..

I personally reported somebody to the humane society once, because they didn't feed or care for their dog. It was emancipated and pitiful to look at. I have never seen the skeletal of a dog before. I could even see the shape of her skull and eye sockets, and when they investigated, they found her puppies dead and frozen to the porch. They had to go to court and she took their dog away and they never got it back.

Hancock said:

Good!

Therefore, once a criminal, always a criminal... Once a thief, always a thief...Once a speeder, always a speeder...Once a repeater, always a repeater...

How's about that for redundant thinking?

PS.

I assumed nothing. I simply offered an alternative approach to how we view people like Vick. He doesn't necessarily have to be the monster that he's been portrayed as being.

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Once a pedophile, always a pedophile? Or do you think after they serve their time, pedophiles should be able to open their homes to foster children?

I am hard pressed to believe that Vick "grew" some empathy while he was in prison. I personally believe he shouldn't ever have been allowed to own a pet as part of his punishment, but since it wasn't included I'm sure eventually he will. And he'll "love" this dog just as much as he did his previous ones.

Hancock said:

I have never understood how a nation that loves football, boxing, and the MMA, cannot tolerate **** fights and dog fights.

I know that **** fighting and dog fighting is brutal and ruthless, but boxing and the UFC are both brutal and ruthless as well.

Maybe you're concerned that the dog or chicken will die in at end. Well that's a distinct possibility, but in the end, your thirst for violence, aggression, and bloodshed would have been quenched. The same thirst that gets quenched when you go to a MMA or boxing match. How long would the average person mourn the death of an MMA fighter. Most people I'll bet would be all to eager to see the next fighter and skip the mourning bit altogether!

In football, who doesn't like to see a running back get tackled? Who doesn't want to see a quarterback get his clock cleaned? This is especially so when the star quarterback is on the opposing team, it's the fourth quarter, your team is down by 3 pts., the other team is on the 60 yardline, and it's their 3rd down. There's only 50 seconds on the clock!

Let's just face it! There's something within most humans that yearns for aggressive entertainment. The Romans had their gladiators, lions, and all sorts of beast. We modern day humans can have just about anything we want!

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The difference is the people in MMA and boxing choose to fight.. and my understand is that dogs often fight to the death. If they get in the ring and try to run out, and won't fight.. that is usually reason to kill the dog. It's worthless if it won't fight. It provides no service to the trainer anymore.

And trainers don't take their injured dogs to the vet to fix them up... so they often try to do it themselves or don't do it at all. That isn't very safe for the dog and can often lead to infection.

Part of the training usually involves using another dog, a weaker dog as bait.. so the fighter dog can get it's "teeth wet" and learn to kill.

Kelzie said:

Once a pedophile, always a pedophile? Or do you think after they serve their time, pedophiles should be able to open their homes to foster children?

I am hard pressed to believe that Vick "grew" some empathy while he was in prison. I personally believe he shouldn't ever have been allowed to own a pet as part of his punishment, but since it wasn't included I'm sure eventually he will. And he'll "love" this dog just as much as he did his previous ones.

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I totally agree, Kelzie. How does one's thinking make a 180 degree turn like that? We're supposed to buy, all of a sudden, that Vick empathizes with dogs?

X Factor said:

I totally agree, Kelzie. How does one's thinking make a 180 degree turn like that? We're supposed to buy, all of a sudden, that Vick empathizes with dogs?

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:shrug: It doesn't and he doesn't. No amount of jail time is going to make me start empathizing with spiders. I'll sing a pretty song to make people think I do, but I'll still squish them in the privacy of my own home. Seriously, if you ain't got, it, you ain't got it.

Kelzie said:

Once a pedophile, always a pedophile? Or do you think after they serve their time, pedophiles should be able to open their homes to foster children?

I am hard pressed to believe that Vick "grew" some empathy while he was in prison. I personally believe he shouldn't ever have been allowed to own a pet as part of his punishment, but since it wasn't included I'm sure eventually he will. And he'll "love" this dog just as much as he did his previous ones.

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Why in the world are you guys placing this indiscretion on the same level as pedophilia?

That's just NOT smart!

What can you say about a MMA fighter?

The typical MMA fighter, beats the heck out of another human being (sometimes when they're already profusely bleeding), and once he knocks the guy out, he's still allowed to punch the guy some more until the referee stops the action. Many of these guys openly admit that they have a propensity for violence, bad tempers, and don't take any crap off of anyone one!

Should we now register them as a possible threat to society and have them go to the nearest police station to announce their presence to the unsuspecting community?

What Vick did was less than beating the heck out of another human being. He caused no harm to another human being! People cause grave detriment to other people on a daily basis and many members of our society would agree with the harm imposed.

What Vick did was reprehensible! However, it was not unforgiveable!

Quite possibly, the best therapy for Vick and the rest of us, would be to allow him to begin showing affection to another being. Perhaps, if successful, he won't have to pay this insufferable debt of eternal social stigma.

My GOD! Give the guy a break!

Don't forget, animals are NOT on the same level as humans. We eat animals everyday! Most of us don't want to know how the animal was killed. We're just happy as heck to have something warm, tender, tasty, and covered in gravy upon our plates.

Bon Appetite!

Hancock said:

Why in the world are you guys placing this indiscretion on the same level as pedophilia?

That's just NOT smart!

What Vick did was less than beating the heck out of another human being. He caused no harm to another human being! People cause grave detriment to other people on a daily basis and many members of our society would agree with the harm imposed.

What Vick did was reprehensible! However, it was not unforgiveable!

Quite possibly, the best therapy for Vick and the rest of us, would be to allow him to begin showing affection to another being. Perhaps, if successful, he won't have to pay this insufferable debt of eternal social stigma.

My GOD! Give the guy a break!

Don't forget, animals are NOT on the same level as humans. We eat animals everyday! Most of us don't want to know how the animal was killed. We're just happy as heck to have something warm, tender, tasty, and covered in gravy upon our plates.

Bon Appetite!

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Perhaps because it's more comparable than a speeding ticket?

You can't teach people empathy. It can't be learned even as a child. No amount of being surrounded by cute cuddly puppies is going to change the fact that the only value Vick places in them is for his own amusement.

And while I might enjoy a tasty steak, that doesn't change or negate the fact that I'm opposed to them being tortured to death for human entertainment. Vick isn't. There is a fundamental difference between us, no more breachable than the difference between a pedophile and someone with "normal" sexual preferences.

Hancock said:

Why in the world are you guys placing this indiscretion on the same level as pedophilia?

That's just NOT smart!

What can you say about a MMA fighter?

The typical MMA fighter, beats the heck out of another human being (sometimes when they're already profusely bleeding), and once he knocks the guy out, he's still allowed to punch the guy some more until the referee stops the action. Many of these guys openly admit that they have a propensity for violence, bad tempers, and don't take any crap off of anyone one!

Should we now register them as a possible threat to society and have them go to the nearest police station to announce their presence to the unsuspecting community?

What Vick did was less than beating the heck out of another human being. He caused no harm to another human being! People cause grave detriment to other people on a daily basis and many members of our society would agree with the harm imposed.

What Vick did was reprehensible! However, it was not unforgiveable!

Quite possibly, the best therapy for Vick and the rest of us, would be to allow him to begin showing affection to another being. Perhaps, if successful, he won't have to pay this insufferable debt of eternal social stigma.

My GOD! Give the guy a break!

Don't forget, animals are NOT on the same level as humans. We eat animals everyday! Most of us don't want to know how the animal was killed. We're just happy as heck to have something warm, tender, tasty, and covered in gravy upon our plates.

Bon Appetite!

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While animals are not on the same level as humans, I will agree there, but you don't make them fight to the death. Shoot them for food, but not for sport. He was killing senselessly, so how can you say he's not as bad as the MMA fighters?

Kelzie said:

:shrug: It doesn't and he doesn't. No amount of jail time is going to make me start empathizing with spiders. I'll sing a pretty song to make people think I do, but I'll still squish them in the privacy of my own home. Seriously, if you ain't got, it, you ain't got it.

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So now, what are you doing here, Kelzie?

You are reducing Vick to the level of an insect. He's really just another human being who made a mistake.

Next, you're squishing the insect! Metaphorically speaking, you're killing Vick!

Hey, Vick was just a dog killer!

You're now espousing the propostion of MURDER!

PS.

I think that perhaps, Vick might be just a tad above MURDER!

Hancock said:

So now, what are you doing here, Kelzie?

You are reducing Vick to the level of an insect. He's really just another human being who made a mistake.

Next, you're squishing the insect! Metaphorically speaking, you're killing Vick!

Hey, Vick was just a dog killer!

You're now espousing the propostion of MURDER!

PS.

I think that perhaps, Vick might be just a tad above a MURDERER!

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He didn't just make a mistake. He systematically and repeatedly tortured dogs to death. That's not a mistake, it's a choice. And me saying he should never own another pet again is hardly punishing him for murder. It's calling a spade a spade. You can't go from enjoying watching animals being chewed apart to loving one.

tsla said:

While animals are not on the same level as humans, I will agree there, but you don't make them fight to the death. Shoot them for food, but not for sport. He was killing senselessly, so how can you say he's not as bad as the MMA fighters?

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He wasn't killing senselessly. Believe me, the same senses that are involved when we watch MMA matches and boxing, are the same ones activated when people like Vick watched animals fight until death. The only difference was the fact that the animals were made to fight and kill one another, whereas the MMA fighters voluntarily signed contracts. Of course, there may have been some financial inducement there that made the event a requirement, financially speaking.

I once met a PETA member who was an anti-gay racist! That means, it's ok to impose harm upon other human beings, but you'd better not even think about harming an animal. Make certain that cats and dogs eat everyday, but give nothing to the homeless.

We humans are really something else!

PS.

She also had an adversion to the homeless, as well.

Hancock said:

So now, what are you doing here, Kelzie?

You are reducing Vick to the level of an insect. He's really just another human being who made a mistake.

Next, you're squishing the insect! Metaphorically speaking, you're killing Vick!

Hey, Vick was just a dog killer!

You're now espousing the propostion of MURDER!

PS.

I think that perhaps, Vick might be just a tad above MURDER!

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I think maybe you've gotten yourself lost in all your metaphores. Kelzie did not mean that squishing spiders means squishing Vick. That doesn't even make sense.

Kelzie said:

He didn't just make a mistake. He systematically and repeatedly tortured dogs to death. That's not a mistake, it's a choice. And me saying he should never own another pet again is hardly punishing him for murder. It's calling a spade a spade. You can't go from enjoying watching animals being chewed apart to loving one.

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So therefore, I can't go from beating other MMA guys heads in, on a daily basis, to just chilling at home, surrounded by all the rest of my MMA friends...Right?

Please, that's exactly what they do!

Let's not forget, Vick belonged to a club or group of guys doing this crazy stuff. You must always bear in mind that when people do evil things in groups, they feel validated and justified. This was true for NAZI Germany and it remains true for us today...

X Factor said:

I think maybe you've gotten yourself lost in all your metaphores. Kelzie did not mean that squishing spiders means squishing Vick. That doesn't even make sense.

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Exactly! So therefore, perhaps YOU can explain what KELZIE intended...

Hancock said:

So now, what are you doing here, Kelzie?

You are reducing Vick to the level of an insect. He's really just another human being who made a mistake.

Next, you're squishing the insect! Metaphorically speaking, you're killing Vick!

Hey, Vick was just a dog killer!

You're now espousing the propostion of MURDER!

PS.

I think that perhaps, Vick might be just a tad above MURDER!

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She isn't doing that at all.

She is pointing out that his disturbing behavior shows such a lack of empathy as to be pathological, and not able to be truly changed. THere is much sound psychological basis for this, for although he may learn what to say in order to appear contrite, or may actually feel remorse for his actions (most likely only because of the consequences of such) his actual lack of empathy for other beings is a developmental stage he obviously missed.

Hancock said:

So therefore, I can't go from beating other MMA guys heads in, on a daily basis, to just chilling at home, surrounded by all the rest of my MMA friends...

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Also doesn't make sense. First off, MMA fighters are rational adults, capable of making their own decisions. Second Vick wasn't a MMA fighter. To make the analogy work at all, he'd have to be some sort of gladiator slave driver, which is getting a little ridiculous. Those dogs didn't chose to fight, Vick and his ilk forced them to fight to the death for their own sick amusement. Not even a little comparable to MMA.

Hancock said:

He wasn't killing senselessly. Believe me, the same senses that are involved when we watch MMA matches and boxing, are the same ones activated when people like Vick watched animals fight until death. The only difference was the fact that the animals were made to fight and kill one another, whereas the MMA fighters voluntarily signed contracts. Of course, there may have been some financial inducement there that made the event a requirement, financially speaking.

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What you call "the only difference" makes all the difference. Humans always have a say in how they live, animals do not.