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Vick says he would like a pet dog; anger follows

Should Michael Vick be allowed to own a dog?


  • Total voters
    43
People have been killing unwanted animals and even their own babies for 1000's of years.

people get their panties in a wad because some guy kills a few dogs, but fully support a woman's choice to kill her own baby/fetus :shrug:
 
I don't think I could have been more explicit in stating that I don't think Vick is a psychopath. And while I won't argue with the dumb part, he doesn't strike me as that young.

Kelzie, we all do dumb things whether we're young or not. Most of us have demonstrated some form of cruelty to another sentient being before, be it human or not. Most of us could barely escape a day without doing at least one dumb thing.

Sometimes, we actually plan to do something stupid. This is especially possible when you're in a group. Your boundaries of surreal stupidity suddenly expand when you're in a wealthy group where disposable income is practically insurmountable. All members of the group have been completely desensitized to pain, empathy, sympathy, regret, or any of those apparently alien concepts. Why? Because you're a football player! You're a gladiator! You're a warrior who has been trained to destroy, maim, injure, devastate, and defeat your oppenent by any means necessary and is legal. Legal means, you don't get caught! How many years did Vick hear the words destroy, defeat, kill, hurt, or even the word "murder". Since junior high school these words were the theme of each day.
These words, no doubt, had some psychological impact upon Vick, as well as the sport itself. A sport based upon violence and the lack of empathy.

I'm not certain that Vick wasn't unduly exposed to this sickness many years ago. The same type of sickness that helped to make him a success both in high school and the NFL. Vick saw himself as a warrior! Aggression and violence were integral components of his character.

He just went a bit too far!

PS.

Then again, what about wealthy hunters who kill for sport?

They're certainly not killing for food!

Do they deserve felonious records, prison time, and eternal negative stigmas attached to their names, as well?
 
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Vick admitted to killing 8 himself. But his "ring" had been breeding and selectively weeding out the offspring of dogs for years.

So what did you do, break out the calculator and extrapolate on a graph?

Point is, you don't know how many! So don't speculate or extrapolate, it just becomes numerical conjecture...
 
1. Palin didn't torture the caribou before she killed it?

2. hunting isn't illegal, dogfighting is?

:shrug: and :lamo

And you think I was trying to make a real point, silly, silly Oscar :2razz:
 
I think that's a case of... is he laughing with me, or laughing at me ;)

It would've been funnier if you had asked the same question but substituted a picture of Cheney holding a shotgun. :lamo
 
The choice to dogs in a dog fighting ring is to fight or die. Do you think those are the two choice that go through an MMA fighter's head?



As for your ridiculous line of reasoning that rational adults aren't capable of making a decision, I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask for proof. I have US law, centuries of tradition and psychological evaluations on my side. What do you have?

I also have no problem killing animals, even dogs for food. What I do have a problem with is torturing them to death for entertainment. I am also completely convinced that anyone engaged in said torture cannot be rehabilitated.

So therefore, I'm to assume what?

That US laws haven't been crazy! ....That US traditions haven't been crazy!...That your psychological exams were perfect and that the people who designed them are perfect!

Who has psychological exams anyway, besides the military? ...Was there ever any question?

Kelzie, my point is that none of us are perfect. There is very little in human history that would suggest that we're anywhere close to being perfect when it comes to socio-political ideas. We're constantly making mistakes and then attempting to improve upon those mistakes. The problem is that there are far too many variables. The United States has made plenty of stupid laws on all levels of government. US tradition has been shaped by law and by culture. Culture includes customs as part of tradition. I just know we don't have to take the stupid walk down the lane of stupid traditions. We could start with burning witches, exterminating native Americans, killing up all the buffalo, manifest destiny, slavery, the entounment of Japanese Americans, etc...Wow! What a stupid walk that was and that was just and that was just a small portion of the trip...

How mentally sound you are?...I don't know... You appear to be fairly lucid to me...
 
So therefore, I'm to assume what?

That US laws haven't been crazy! ....That US traditions haven't been crazy!...That your psychological exams were perfect and that the people who designed them are perfect!

Who has psychological exams anyway, besides the military? ...Was there ever any question?

Kelzie, my point is that none of us are perfect. There is very little in human history that would suggest that we're anywhere close to being perfect when it comes to socio-political ideas. We're constantly making mistakes and then attempting to improve upon those mistakes. The problem is that there are far too many variables. The United States has made plenty of stupid laws on all levels of government. US tradition has been shaped by law and by culture. Culture includes customs as part of tradition. I just know we don't have to take the stupid walk down the lane of stupid traditions. We could start with burning witches, exterminating native Americans, killing up all the buffalo, manifest destiny, slavery, the entounment of Japanese Americans, etc...Wow! What a stupid walk that was and that was just and that was just a small portion of the trip...

How mentally sound you are?...I don't know... You appear to be fairly lucid to me...

Your post did not adequately respond to mine. You claimed that rational adults are not capable of making decisions. Prove it.

I never claimed we were perfect. I also am aware that people makes mistakes. Vick did not make a mistake. A DUI is a mistake. Hell, murder can even be a mistake. Vick repeatedly and purposefully engaged in his behavior. To claim he made a mistake is about as logical as claiming a serial killer "accidently" murder 14 people.
 
Once....okay.

But to literaly kill thousands of dogs at your own hand, for many years, because they didn't "measure up" shows a serious character flaw at the least, and possibly a psychotic tendancy at the worst.

How you could take a puppy that didn't have the "measureables" into your hands, grab it by the head, twist it until the neck snaps, and throw it in a pile of other dead puppies it beyond my comprehension.



Vick admitted to killing 8 himself. But his "ring" had been breeding and selectively weeding out the offspring of dogs for years.




Ooooookay.... was it "thousands by his own hands", or was it 8? Big difference.
As someone else pointed out, culling animals with undesired characteristics has been going on for thousands of years, and still goes on today.
 
I never claimed we were perfect. I also am aware that people makes mistakes. Vick did not make a mistake. A DUI is a mistake. Hell, murder can even be a mistake. Vick repeatedly and purposefully engaged in his behavior. To claim he made a mistake is about as logical as claiming a serial killer "accidently" murder 14 people.

I have real issues with comparing dog fighting practices to killing humans. I'm sorry, but animals are animals. They deserve some consideration yes, but they're not people. Sometimes I think there would be less hoopla over Vick if he'd killed a human being. That is what disgusts me about this whole thing.
 
I have real issues with comparing dog fighting practices to killing humans. I'm sorry, but animals are animals. They deserve some consideration yes, but they're not people. Sometimes I think there would be less hoopla over Vick if he'd killed a human being. That is what disgusts me about this whole thing.

It's an analogy. I'm sure you've never used one in your whole life.
 
I have real issues with comparing dog fighting practices to killing humans. I'm sorry, but animals are animals. They deserve some consideration yes, but they're not people. Sometimes I think there would be less hoopla over Vick if he'd killed a human being. That is what disgusts me about this whole thing.

The fallacy that you are drawing is that by people making comparisons they are necessarily equating them. You can make an argument with a comparison without implying that they are equal.
 
It's an analogy. I'm sure you've never used one in your whole life.


Of course I have. "Analogy is always suspect, because no analogy corresponds one-to-one with the subject" and so on.

Still, the hoopla over this amazes me, and the way some people keep dragging comparisons to murderers and pedophiles into it is remarkable.
 
Your post did not adequately respond to mine. You claimed that rational adults are not capable of making decisions. Prove it.

I never claimed we were perfect. I also am aware that people makes mistakes. Vick did not make a mistake. A DUI is a mistake. Hell, murder can even be a mistake. Vick repeatedly and purposefully engaged in his behavior. To claim he made a mistake is about as logical as claiming a serial killer "accidently" murder 14 people.

Quite to the contrary!

I've already stated, human beings do things that are extremely questionable, daily. Inventors usually make hundreds of errors before they actually produce a functional ptototype. When it comes to making a "sound" decision about entering the octagon with an MMA fighter fully capable of killing me with one blow, that would NOT be a rational decision! It doesn't matter that I can do the same to him because I have equivalent fighting skills. What matters, is that I could possibly miscalculate! I might make a mistake! I might get hit in the eye. My vision gets blurred. Next thing you know, I'm hooked up to some hospital respirator. Of course, it could go the other way. How much remorse or empathy would either of us have for the other?

One of might get thought of in the passing of thoughts, but that about it! It's just not smart to place one's butt in harms way. It's not smart, it's not judicious, and it's certainly NOT rational.

When you think about it, we as humans make far too many mistakes. Most of our mistakes involve some sort of calculated risk. We like to play the odds game. As for adults making sound decisions...I don't know...Is gambling sound or rational?

PS.

Once again, you cannot continue to place the killing of dogs on the same level as the killing of human beings!
 
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Of course I have. "Analogy is always suspect, because no analogy corresponds one-to-one with the subject" and so on.

Still, the hoopla over this amazes me, and the way some people keep dragging comparisons to murderers and pedophiles into it is remarkable.

Because some people insist that it was just a mistake. I also compared it to a DUI if it makes you feel better.
 
Quite to the contrary!

I've already stated, human beings do things that are extremely questionable, daily. Inventors usually make hundreds of errors before they actually produce a functional ptototype. When it comes to making a "sound" decision about entering the octagon with an MMA fighter fully capable of killing me with one blow, that would NOT be a rational decision! It doesn't matter that I can do the same to him because I have equivalent fighting skills. What matters, is that I could possibly miscalculate! I might make a mistake! I might get hit in the eye. My vision gets blurred. Next thing you know, I'm hooked up to some hospital respirator. Of course, it could go the other way. How much remorse or empathy would either of us have for the other?

One of might get thought of in the passing of thoughts, but that about it! It's just not smart to place one's butt in harms way. It's not smart, it's not judicious, and it's certainly NOT rational.

When you think about it, we as humans make far too many mistakes. Most of our mistakes involve some sort of calculated risk. We like to play the odds game. As for adults making sound decisions...I don't know...Is gambling sound or rational?

PS.

Once again, you cannot continue to place the killing of dogs on the same level as the killing of human beings!

Now you have two things to prove. I'm still waiting for something, anything to suggest that rational adults are not capable of making their own decisions.

I'd also like you to prove where I said the killing of dogs in on the same level as the killing of human beings. It seems a lot of people are getting confused over it.
 
i would just like to know why vick's agent let him talk.
 
So what did you do, break out the calculator and extrapolate on a graph?

Point is, you don't know how many! So don't speculate or extrapolate, it just becomes numerical conjecture...

They were at this for years. I'm betting the number is far more than 8.
 
i would just like to know why vick's agent let him talk.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was a much planned PR stunt. I think they just underestimated the amount of time it would take the public to "forgive" him.
 
I wouldn't be surprised if it was a much planned PR stunt. I think they just underestimated the amount of time it would take the public to "forgive" him.

he's got a lousy agent then.
 
I studied it a little after a teacher sparked an interest. It's the major qualifier for being a psychopath: a lack of empathy. Everything I've read says it can't be taught, certainly not to an adult. There's some clinics working with children with mixed results. It'd be interesting to get Captain Courtesy on here to comment.
Psychopathy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I'm not saying Vick is a full blown psychopath, only highlighting that there is no treatment for those that lack empathy.

It depends on your viewpoint. If your vision of the disorder is one of physiological disorder, then you would believe it cant be changed. Its not that empathy cant be taught...its that empathy cant be taught to people that are so deeply entrenched in their defense mechanisms that they wont be. Most therapists wont work with Axis II people because the success rate is so poor. How do you reach a narcissist or anti-soc that believes the problem is everyone BUT them or that they are critically, fatally flawed? Those are some deeply ingrained barriers to change. How do you reach an anti-soc who has typically been taught since somewhere in their teen years that they ARE in fact a sociopath? Many of the methods used for 'teaching' sociopaths simply reinforce the belief system. In fact many justice systems still use the Samenow Methods which teach that in order for you to progress you have to essentially ACCEPT it is what you are.

There ARE some effective means of reaching folks...but not through traditional psychotherapy. And it is by no means effective for all.
 
i would just like to know why vick's agent let him talk.

Or at least have given him some canned responses for taboo subjects.
 
Kelzie, you said:

I never claimed we were perfect. I also am aware that people makes mistakes. Vick did not make a mistake. A DUI is a mistake. Hell, murder can even be a mistake. Vick repeatedly and purposefully engaged in his behavior. To claim he made a mistake is about as logical as claiming a serial killer "accidently" murder 14 people

I'm saying:

That is the equivalent of saying Vick's mistake, "the mindless killing of innocent animals", is on par with, or is "as logical as claiming a serial killer accidentally murdered 14 people".

You simply can't place the killing of animals on the same plane with the killing of other people!

I've already thoroughly explained my perspective on the human soundness of mind and rationality. As far as I'm concerned, all bets are off on that one!
 
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