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House approves repeal of 'don't ask, don't tell'(edited)

Hancock said:
The only problem with that statistic, is that sex orientation crimes and transgender related crimes are much less likely to get reported.

When a black or latino is attacked, there are multitudes of fellow community members ready to stand up in their defense, while all the while identifying with the predicament.

Many gays feel as though if they weren't so mess up in the first place, nobody would have bothered them. They therefore, feel as though they brought the attack on by themselves. Another thing is that many gays are still in the closet. If not in the closet for all, they are at least in the closet insofar as employment is concerned. Some gays have been harassed by the police and therefore, tend to steer clear of law enforcement.
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As I was reading the conversation here, I knew somebody would disagree with Redress's calm and logical argument.

Your second paragraph needs to be linked. Redress provided a good source for his stats. Please do the same for your hysterical claims.
 
tryreading said:
As I was reading the conversation here, I knew somebody would disagree with Redress's calm and logical argument.

Your second paragraph needs to be linked. Redress provided a good source for his stats. Please do the same for your hysterical claims.
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Aside from the fact that this information has been widely reported and is all over the net. It was very easy to find a link that corroborates this highly publicized information. C'mon guys! You should know this stuff already!

education.equalityarizona.org/Portals/0/Hate Crimes.pdf
 
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Hancock said:
Aside from the fact that this information has been widely reported and is all over the net. It was very easy to find a link that corroborates this highly publicized information. C'mon guys! You should know this stuff already!

education.equalityarizona.org/Portals/0/Hate Crimes.pdf
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The study was from 1999. The situation for gays has changed significantly. Gays are notably more accepted by society these days.

Further, the actual numbers presented in this document hurt your case, with crimes based on race(over half of all hate crimes, and crimes based on religion both being more common.

There is zero evidence that violence against gays is a significant problem in this country. While no violence would be good, it's just not going to happen. Your argument opens up denying military service based on race and religion as well as orientation using your logic.
 
Redress said:
The study was from 1999. The situation for gays has changed significantly. Gays are notably more accepted by society these days.

Further, the actual numbers presented in this document hurt your case, with crimes based on race(over half of all hate crimes, and crimes based on religion both being more common.

There is zero evidence that violence against gays is a significant problem in this country. While no violence would be good, it's just not going to happen. Your argument opens up denying military service based on race and religion as well as orientation using your logic.
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Say, isn't there a big anti-bullying movement that was sparked by an apparent rash of incidents of gay teen suicides? That didn't sound like a publicity stunt to me. It appeared to be a legitimate concern and very directly related to social attitudes about homosexuals.

Now maybe my reasoning is faulty, but it strikes me as a fair assumption that some of these bullies end up joining the military, and that as bullies are often charismatic and the military stresses conformity, this combination might be a reason to advise some caution.

I am not suggesting that DADT not be repealed, that is way past due, in my opinion. I am suggesting though that folks should be alert and proactive. Those starting a tour of duty in the military are most often young enough to still make some very foolish decisions. The threat of conflicts which might arise from this impulse that a lot of aggressive kids have to bully needs to be acknowledged.
 
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Just1Voice said:
Say, isn't there a big anti-bullying movement that was sparked by an apparent rash of incidents of gay teen suicides? That didn't sound like a publicity stunt to me. It appeared to be a legitimate concern and very directly related to social attitudes about homosexuals.

Now maybe my reasoning is faulty, but it strikes me as a fair assumption that some of these bullies end up joining the military, and that as bullies are often charismatic and the military stresses conformity, this combination might be a reason to advise some caution.

I am not suggesting that DADT not be repealed, that is way past due, in my opinion. I am suggesting though that folks should be alert and proactive. Those starting a tour of duty in the military are most often young enough to still make some very foolish decisions. The threat of conflicts which might arise from this impulse that a lot of aggressive kids have to bully needs to be acknowledged.
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Yes, but those incidents should not be used as excuses to keep a discriminating policy in place.

And, those incidents were not about violence, as much as bullying, which is really happening to almost any teenager that is different. Bullying should be dealt with, whether it happens in school or in the military, quickly and fairly. Although from my experience, the military does a much better job at dealing with bullying than high schools. Bullying in the military is usually more about a person's ability to do their job (or lack of) or how much a person actually complains/whines about doing the job or other things. Much of the harassment that happens in the military is not due to specific characteristics. And the harassment that does happen to people because of their traits (race, sex, religion, sexuality) will mostly be verbal, not physical, unless the person is actually causing problems.
 
Redress said:
The study was from 1999. The situation for gays has changed significantly. Gays are notably more accepted by society these days.
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Some people still wanna party like it's 1999.

Hell, some people still wanna party like it's 1959.

What ya gonna do?

In 2029, this will all be history and they will be laughing at the 1999'er's much like we laugh at the 1959'er's today.

And the beat goes on.

America. What a country!
 
roguenuke said:
Yes, but those incidents should not be used as excuses to keep a discriminating policy in place.
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I agree wholeheartedly.

roguenuke said:
And, those incidents were not about violence, as much as bullying, which is really happening to almost any teenager that is different. Bullying should be dealt with, whether it happens in school or in the military, quickly and fairly. Although from my experience, the military does a much better job at dealing with bullying than high schools.
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I really hope that remains the case. I am ethically inclined to agree with you, however as one who has extensive experience with being bullied, I remain cautious. Additionally, while a lot of bullying doesn't take the form of immediate violence, some of it does and the rest is still quite capable of inflicting a lot of damage.

roguenuke said:
Bullying in the military is usually more about a person's ability to do their job (or lack of) or how much a person actually complains/whines about doing the job or other things. Much of the harassment that happens in the military is not due to specific characteristics. And the harassment that does happen to people because of their traits (race, sex, religion, sexuality) will mostly be verbal, not physical, unless the person is actually causing problems.
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What bullying has been about in the military up to this point is not at issue. It is what it might be in danger of becoming about in the future that I am concerned with. This issue has been blown up by our conflict-dependent media beyond reasonable proportions, and that makes it more volatile.
 
Redress said:
The study was from 1999. The situation for gays has changed significantly. Gays are notably more accepted by society these days.

Further, the actual numbers presented in this document hurt your case, with crimes based on race(over half of all hate crimes, and crimes based on religion both being more common.

There is zero evidence that violence against gays is a significant problem in this country. While no violence would be good, it's just not going to happen. Your argument opens up denying military service based on race and religion as well as orientation using your logic.
Click to expand...

I think that both you and Tryreading (Boy! If that isn't oxymoronic!), should try reading more about hate crimes as they specifically relate to the LGBT community. I think it would bolster your advocacy positions for this community particularly, if you're going to support issues like the repeal of DADT. When arguing against its repeal, you would be better armed with more accurate infromation in this regard. Also, I would personally like to invite you to yet another website where, once again, it is stated that gays are less likely to report hate crimes against them. Please do check it out!

When people commit hate crimes, they do so out of indignant moral ignorance. They feel entitled to attack the victim because the victim is representing some form of image violation that is contrary to their already established internalized standard image, that they perceive is superior.

Defining Hate in the United States -- In These Times

PS.

Thus far, it would appear that you are not in the least bit aware of hate crimes as they are related to the LGBT community specifically, their frequency of being reported, the level of bullying currently taking place within our schools, or the devastating effects of both bully and hate crimes upon some of the most precious members of our society.
 
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Kelzie said:
I don't know about slightly icky....I'm just kinda "eh" about it. In fact I'm so "eh" about it, I was surprised I found two guys to be extremely hot. I always figured guys were weirdos for liking lesbians.
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Actually, I find it extremly hot plus that a little bit of the reason I wacth Shoean Ai. Shoean Ai is guys kissing each other normaly in Japanses comic books.
 
Captain America said:
Some people still wanna party like it's 1999.

Hell, some people still wanna party like it's 1959.

What ya gonna do?

In 2029, this will all be history and they will be laughing at the 1999'er's much like we laugh at the 1959'er's today.

And the beat goes on.

America. What a country!
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I predict just the opposite! Since religion is not going to be completely extinguished by then and the gap between the poor and the rich is going to be even wider, people will be more on the defensive and find ways to rationalize their resentment towards other groups. Poor people are going to need to see other groups of people beneath them in order to have a sense of at least some superiority over other groups. Traditionally these groups have been groups of either other opposing religious beliefs or groups who have "questionable" morals. These types of groups usually will be members of the LGBT community for certain. They also may be members of certain racial or ethnic backgrounds.

The upper middle class along with the rich, will continue to blame the poor and contend that their condition is somehow genetically inherent and that sexual and gender dysfunctionality is to expected in such inferior groups.
 
Hancock said:
I think that both you and Tryreading (Boy! If that isn't oxymoronic!), should try reading more about hate crimes as they specifically relate to the LGBT community. I think it would bolster your advocacy positions for this community particularly, if you're going to support issues like the repeal of DADT. When arguing against its repeal, you would be better armed with more accurate infromation in this regard. Also, I would personally like to invite you to yet another website where, once again, it is stated that gays are less likely to report hate crimes against them. Please do check it out!

When people commit hate crimes, they do so out of indignant moral ignorance. They feel entitled to attack the victim because the victim is representing some form of image violation that is contrary to their already established internalized standard image, that they perceive is superior.

Defining Hate in the United States -- In These Times

PS.

Thus far, it would appear that you are not in the least bit aware of hate crimes as they are related to the LGBT community specifically, their frequency of being reported, the level of bullying currently taking place within our schools, or the devastating effects of both bully and hate crimes upon some of the most precious members of our society.
Click to expand...

1) My "advocacy" for DADT repeal is not at all affected by hate crime knowledge. You are literally the only one ever on these boards who has suggested that there is significant violence against gays in society.

2) so far I have shown more knowledge on the subject of hate crimes against gays than you have.

3) I have been around gays since I was about 7. I know a ****load of gay people. None have been the victim of violence aimed at gays, none of them fear violence against gays in this day and age.

4) There is zero evidence that gays would be a target of violence if DADT was repealed. It's an argument of grasping at straws.
 
fireworks.jpg


Yaayyyyyyyyy!!!! Where's Navy? I owe him a big old, "I told you so!"
 
I'm communicating with MSgt throught text. Apparently our military hasn't crumbled yet. There's always tomorrow though...
 
dadt passed procedurals this morning, it is almost sure to be repealed

in other words, the filibuster failed, repeal won 63 votes

i'm afraid i didn't get the names of the gop defectors, but i'm sure they include snowe, collins, scott brown #41 from chappaquiddick and murkowski from palin country

to get to 63, there would have to be another

it was on cspan2, very interesting, it's not even up on politico yet

dream failed just before dadt passed, dadt now needs 51 only, after having just gotten 63...

it will be on obama's desk soon, the same that just cut taxes for the rich, claimed it as a victory, turned control of 2011 spending over to the orange dude who cries

dream failed, got only 55---i saw that bennett of utah went over, as did lugar (obama's buddy on start), and murkowski in what was sposed to be sarah's seat

that is, most of the notable rhinos stuck with their team---omnipresent olympia, #41, george voinovich, et al

on the other side, tester of montana, stiffneck nelson from the kickback crib, mark pryor from arkansas, and the gatekeeper himself, max baucus, sided with mcconnell

start is next, lindsey lamented this morning how unfair all this politics is, he looked like a loser

will republicans insist on a full airing of start?

that's about all that's left of the duck

you probably saw this week that gitmo detainees were banned from civil venue in the house, 341(!) to 48

and michelle's food safety bill, which comes at the cost of CUTS TO FOOD STAMPS, was looking as dreary as dream

fyi
 
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Redress said:
1) My "advocacy" for DADT repeal is not at all affected by hate crime knowledge. You are literally the only one ever on these boards who has suggested that there is significant violence against gays in society.

2) so far I have shown more knowledge on the subject of hate crimes against gays than you have.

3) I have been around gays since I was about 7. I know a ****load of gay people. None have been the victim of violence aimed at gays, none of them fear violence against gays in this day and age.

4) There is zero evidence that gays would be a target of violence if DADT was repealed. It's an argument of grasping at straws.
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You have shown me nothing! Quite to the contrary, I have given you corroborating websites where evidence has been offered that demonstrates violence against gays and their unwillingness to report it. You have offered nothing to support your claims or to refute that of my own.

There is only TOO MUCH resentment that entire communities have against gays. There are certain suburban communities in Chicago where an openly gay guy will most certainly be attacked walking their streets unescorted.

African-Americans are particularly set against other African-American male gays openly expressing their sexuality. Hispanics are also known for their intolerance of gays.

Bullies exist in all communities. Bullies usually have a propensity for attacking LGBT members. Bullies have no disticnt color or ethnicity. However, certain ethnicity groups are known to have a traditionally profound dislike for male gays in particular. This is especially so, if the gay is an extraction from their own ethnic group.
 
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Kelzie said:
I'm communicating with MSgt throught text. Apparently our military hasn't crumbled yet. There's always tomorrow though...
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But has he taken a shower?

it is my understanding that it only starts to crumble at that point.
 
Hancock said:
You have shown me nothing! Quite to the contrary, I have given you corroborating websites where evidence has been offered that demonstrates violence against gays and their unwillingness to report it. You have offered nothing to support your claims or refute that of my own.

There is only TOO MUCH resentment that entire communities have against gays. There are certain white communities in Chicago where an openly gay white guy will most certainly be attacked walking their streets unescorted. African-Americans are particularly set against other African-American male gays openly expressing their sexuality. Hispanics are also know for their intolerance for gays.

Bullies exist in all communities. Bullies usually have a propensity for attacking LGBT members. Bullies have no disticnt color or ethnicity. However, certain ethnicity groups are known to have a traditionally profound dislike for male gays in particular. This is especially so, if the gay is an extraction from their own ethnic group.
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Your corroborative website gave old info on a situation that has rapidly evolved. Due to my family situation, I have seen firsthand the situation for gays in this country since the 70's. 11 year old information, based on data even older, is not accurate today. Take a look at any tracking poll on gay issues over the last 11 years to show you this.
 
Gardener said:
But has he taken a shower?

it is my understanding that it only starts to crumble at that point.
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He normally does. However, he is out of my immediate control so who knows what the boy's gotten himself into at this point.
 
Wow, I never expected this to pass congress. The upcoming meltdown is going to be interesting to watch.
 
Kelzie said:
He normally does. However, he is out of my immediate control so who knows what the boy's gotten himself into at this point.
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I am going to have to bookmark this post so we can ensure he sees it when he next posts here.
 
megaprogman said:
Wow, I never expected this to pass congress. The ensuing meltdown is going to be interesting to watch.
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I got out of the navy in 93, 1 few months after Clinton took office. Since he had said repeal of the gay ban was going to happen, it was the talk of the military. We had a running joke flier, with a silhouette of two navy guys walking hand in hand into the sunset with the caption "the navy, it's not just a job, it's a date".
 
it was voinovich and kirk (sitting in obama's seat) who joined the famous 4, snowe, collins, brown and murkowski

on the other side joe manchin from west virginia, who famously put a bullet thru cap and trade to get bobby kkk byrd's seat, sided with the knuckle draggers

i don't know what manchin did on dream, he was definitely a must watch, i suspect he voted no, with pryor, baucus, tester and the stiffneck

'Don't ask' repeal moves toward law - Scott Wong - POLITICO.com

party on

try to keep your clothes on (just kidding)
 
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