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Thread: House approves repeal of 'don't ask, don't tell'(edited)

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    Re: House approves repeal of 'don't ask, don't tell'(edited)

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Well, accroding to Redress, gays have absolute rights throughout the American landscape and that only the military hurdle remains.
    Hey look, a strawman. Never said that or implied it.

    My point, which has been ignored for the sake of the gay pride parade on this thread, is that absolute military prescription will lead the way in a nation full of legal contradiction and bigotry.
    Since gays in the military will have no more rights than gays in the civilian society, this is false.
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    Re: House approves repeal of 'don't ask, don't tell'(edited)

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    "Don't Ogle my ass"?


    You are on a roll today RINO.

    For msgt, it's Defense Of Marriage Act.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: House approves repeal of 'don't ask, don't tell'(edited)

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Well, accroding to Redress, gays have absolute rights throughout the American landscape and that only the military hurdle remains.

    My point, which has been ignored for the sake of the gay pride parade on this thread, is that absolute military prescription will lead the way in a nation full of legal contradiction and bigotry.
    As I stated, the military is more "in the middle" on this one. They are neither leading nor in the back.

    The lesbian I knew who got out under DADT did so because she had found a job in the civilian world that gave her significant other the same benefits as a legal spouse. She got out in 2004. She told me that she would have stayed in if the military could just recognize her "wife" the same as they do a man's wife, but it is 2010 and it still hasn't happened. Even with DADT repealed, it can't happen til DOMA goes away.

    DOMA is unconstitutional and unfair. But it doesn't prevent private companies/businesses from allowing homosexual employees (or even heterosexual employees in relationships but not married) from getting the same benefits for their significant others that it gives to legal spouses. It does make it unfair in those instances where a company has to legally recognize a legal spouse as deserving certain privileges but no one else.

    Plus, the SGLI/insurance thing really isn't an issue. SGLI could always be designated to anyone the servicemember wanted it to go to. All they would have to do is designate the relationship as "friend". The only exception to this would be the fairly new rules that say that a person's legal spouse has to agree to anyone designated besides themselves (although I'm not sure if this is really enforced, but it came about because of people not updating their SGLI info after a divorce and/or marriage). And most civilian policies can be left to anyone as well. There are, I think, a few exceptions, like some of the state employees' policies, but not sure how they work.

    I think that the only thing that will get same sex marriage in place anytime soon (the next 5-10 years) is SCOTUS ruling DOMA unconstitutional. It will essentially take a ruling almost exactly like Loving v. VA to change the current policies, both federal and state.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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    Re: House approves repeal of 'don't ask, don't tell'(edited)

    This is an interesting discussion.

    If I'm understanding this right, the military won't allow spousal designations for the partners of gays until the rest of the country (or parts of it?) allows gay marriage, because it would be unfair to all the unmarried couples in the military who currently can't designate their significant (but not officially/legally) other as their beneficiary.

    Question then – Regarding those areas of the country who do allow gay marriage, if some gay couple gets married there, will the military allow them to designate their partners as their beneficiary and spouse?

    Or however the hell that works.

    Edit: I suppose if the military allowed all couples, both married and unmarried, to designate their significant other as their spouse...

    Is there some legal reason for this?
    Last edited by The Mark; 12-19-10 at 09:08 PM.
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    Re: House approves repeal of 'don't ask, don't tell'(edited)

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    But according to Redress, gays have a fair and equal shake everywhere in the U.S. and the military is the last hold out. And that even after we enforce higher standard and professionalism that it will still be the military that is far behind the civilian sector in terms of gay rights.
    Redress never said that and you know it. And you will be behind some of the civilian sectors. And ahead of some.
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    Re: House approves repeal of 'don't ask, don't tell'(edited)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    This is an interesting discussion.

    If I'm understanding this right, the military won't allow spousal designations for the partners of gays until the rest of the country (or parts of it?) allows gay marriage, because it would be unfair to all the unmarried couples in the military who currently can't designate their significant (but not officially/legally) other as their beneficiary.

    Question then – Regarding those areas of the country who do allow gay marriage, if some gay couple gets married there, will the military allow them to designate their partners as their beneficiary and spouse?

    Or however the hell that works.

    Edit: I suppose if the military allowed all couples, both married and unmarried, to designate their significant other as their spouse...

    Is there some legal reason for this?
    Actually, it appears the military won't recognize gay marriage because of DOMA. The federal government doesn't either for the same reason. Presumably there will be no gay families moving on base then? I wonder why they included that in the questionnaire.
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    Re: House approves repeal of 'don't ask, don't tell'(edited)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelzie View Post
    Actually, it appears the military won't recognize gay marriage because of DOMA. The federal government doesn't either for the same reason. Presumably there will be no gay families moving on base then? I wonder why they included that in the questionnaire.
    That doesn't address my edit, however...

    If they won't recognize gay marriage, what if they allowed the designation of beneficiaries to include unmarried significant others? There could be potential legal issues, obviously, such as people claiming they were significant others and not actually being such...

    That might be why they don' wanna.
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    Re: House approves repeal of 'don't ask, don't tell'(edited)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    That doesn't address my edit, however...

    If they won't recognize gay marriage, what if they allowed the designation of beneficiaries to include unmarried significant others? There could be potential legal issues, obviously, such as people claiming they were significant others and not actually being such...

    That might be why they don' wanna.
    Yeah I don't see them doing that. The spousal benefits are really awesome and quite costly for the military. They do have to restrict them somewhat.
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    Re: House approves repeal of 'don't ask, don't tell'(edited)

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    You may have led once, but you are not leading now. And you have still not shown any evidence of any spousal issues.
    You don't seem to get this. It is simple enough....

    1) Women: Long after civilians were bitching and moaning about female emancipation, they were denied equality within the military. Civilian frustration with civilian systems were able to declare how ancient the military was. However, eventually, females were Commanding Officers and Generals long before they were CEOs. In the end, it was the civilian world tat proved anbcient and behind. This would be the first time that the military led the way for civilians who continued to exercise their right to look down upon the unacceptable.

    2) Blacks: Long after the Civil War (which was military by the way) to free blacks and after the civil rights marches, they were still denied true equality within the military. Civilian frustrations with civilian systems were able to declare how ancient the military was. However, blacks were leading units and being promoted fairly, long before the civilian Affirmative Action. This would be the second time that the military led the way for civilians who continued to exercise their right to look down upon the unacceptable.



    What exactly is it that you need the civilian sector to look like to once again declare the military as behind? It's the same leftist illusional crap. In the end, gays will be treated better in the military (because it will be forced to) than they are in civilian courts and private business. They will be able to declare dependents with full awareness that "spouse" is the intent. And when the military as a whole follows the same policies and laws, it will be the states of the nation that continue to contradict each other and treat gays as unnacceptable. Once again, the military will lead the way. You should be more appreciative of the military's professionalism to do the right thing rather than fulfilling the same old leftist role of yesterday's social struggles.



    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Yes, they mean that gays are just like every one else, with the same ability to be heroic or cowardly.
    Again....so? Save the gay pride crap for someone else. I simply don't care. I wasn't the one that denied gays. Civilian prescription did. This would be the same prescription that refuses them equal legal rights in courts. The military also wasn't the one clinging to DADT a couple months ago when the Air Force and the Pentagon moved to shelve it. But I guess this way, the White House can take their credit. And when the military begins leading the way for gay acceptance, maybe then you will see what history has always told you to expect.

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    Re: House approves repeal of 'don't ask, don't tell'(edited)

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    And why is this? Don't mistake your lack of knowledge as sense.
    This is an interesting response. I called you sensible, and you are saying that I am mistaking sense for a lack of knowledge.

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    As soon as civilians allow gay marrriage. Or should the military lead this too? In the mean time, the military will recognize spousal preference in the RED, which is a step up from what they get now in the courts.
    I don't see why the military couldn't lead it. They are an organization that can marry people.

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