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Thread: House approves repeal of 'don't ask, don't tell'(edited)

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    Re: House approves repeal of 'don't ask, don't tell'(edited)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hancock View Post
    The only problem with that statistic, is that sex orientation crimes and transgender related crimes are much less likely to get reported.

    When a black or latino is attacked, there are multitudes of fellow community members ready to stand up in their defense, while all the while identifying with the predicament.

    Many gays feel as though if they weren't so mess up in the first place, nobody would have bothered them. They therefore, feel as though they brought the attack on by themselves. Another thing is that many gays are still in the closet. If not in the closet for all, they are at least in the closet insofar as employment is concerned. Some gays have been harassed by the police and therefore, tend to steer clear of law enforcement.
    As I was reading the conversation here, I knew somebody would disagree with Redress's calm and logical argument.

    Your second paragraph needs to be linked. Redress provided a good source for his stats. Please do the same for your hysterical claims.
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    Re: House approves repeal of 'don't ask, don't tell'(edited)

    Quote Originally Posted by tryreading View Post
    As I was reading the conversation here, I knew somebody would disagree with Redress's calm and logical argument.

    Your second paragraph needs to be linked. Redress provided a good source for his stats. Please do the same for your hysterical claims.
    Aside from the fact that this information has been widely reported and is all over the net. It was very easy to find a link that corroborates this highly publicized information. C'mon guys! You should know this stuff already!

    http://education.equalityarizona.org...e%20Crimes.pdf
    Last edited by Hancock; 12-18-10 at 12:57 AM.
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    Re: House approves repeal of 'don't ask, don't tell'(edited)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hancock View Post
    Aside from the fact that this information has been widely reported and is all over the net. It was very easy to find a link that corroborates this highly publicized information. C'mon guys! You should know this stuff already!

    http://www.education.equalityarizona...e%20crimes.pdf
    I'm sure you know that link is no good.
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    Re: House approves repeal of 'don't ask, don't tell'(edited)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hancock View Post
    Aside from the fact that this information has been widely reported and is all over the net. It was very easy to find a link that corroborates this highly publicized information. C'mon guys! You should know this stuff already!

    http://education.equalityarizona.org...e%20Crimes.pdf
    The study was from 1999. The situation for gays has changed significantly. Gays are notably more accepted by society these days.

    Further, the actual numbers presented in this document hurt your case, with crimes based on race(over half of all hate crimes, and crimes based on religion both being more common.

    There is zero evidence that violence against gays is a significant problem in this country. While no violence would be good, it's just not going to happen. Your argument opens up denying military service based on race and religion as well as orientation using your logic.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

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    Re: House approves repeal of 'don't ask, don't tell'(edited)

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    The study was from 1999. The situation for gays has changed significantly. Gays are notably more accepted by society these days.

    Further, the actual numbers presented in this document hurt your case, with crimes based on race(over half of all hate crimes, and crimes based on religion both being more common.

    There is zero evidence that violence against gays is a significant problem in this country. While no violence would be good, it's just not going to happen. Your argument opens up denying military service based on race and religion as well as orientation using your logic.
    Say, isn't there a big anti-bullying movement that was sparked by an apparent rash of incidents of gay teen suicides? That didn't sound like a publicity stunt to me. It appeared to be a legitimate concern and very directly related to social attitudes about homosexuals.

    Now maybe my reasoning is faulty, but it strikes me as a fair assumption that some of these bullies end up joining the military, and that as bullies are often charismatic and the military stresses conformity, this combination might be a reason to advise some caution.

    I am not suggesting that DADT not be repealed, that is way past due, in my opinion. I am suggesting though that folks should be alert and proactive. Those starting a tour of duty in the military are most often young enough to still make some very foolish decisions. The threat of conflicts which might arise from this impulse that a lot of aggressive kids have to bully needs to be acknowledged.
    Last edited by Just1Voice; 12-18-10 at 03:02 AM.

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    Re: House approves repeal of 'don't ask, don't tell'(edited)

    Quote Originally Posted by Just1Voice View Post
    Say, isn't there a big anti-bullying movement that was sparked by an apparent rash of incidents of gay teen suicides? That didn't sound like a publicity stunt to me. It appeared to be a legitimate concern and very directly related to social attitudes about homosexuals.

    Now maybe my reasoning is faulty, but it strikes me as a fair assumption that some of these bullies end up joining the military, and that as bullies are often charismatic and the military stresses conformity, this combination might be a reason to advise some caution.

    I am not suggesting that DADT not be repealed, that is way past due, in my opinion. I am suggesting though that folks should be alert and proactive. Those starting a tour of duty in the military are most often young enough to still make some very foolish decisions. The threat of conflicts which might arise from this impulse that a lot of aggressive kids have to bully needs to be acknowledged.
    Yes, but those incidents should not be used as excuses to keep a discriminating policy in place.

    And, those incidents were not about violence, as much as bullying, which is really happening to almost any teenager that is different. Bullying should be dealt with, whether it happens in school or in the military, quickly and fairly. Although from my experience, the military does a much better job at dealing with bullying than high schools. Bullying in the military is usually more about a person's ability to do their job (or lack of) or how much a person actually complains/whines about doing the job or other things. Much of the harassment that happens in the military is not due to specific characteristics. And the harassment that does happen to people because of their traits (race, sex, religion, sexuality) will mostly be verbal, not physical, unless the person is actually causing problems.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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    Re: House approves repeal of 'don't ask, don't tell'(edited)

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    The study was from 1999. The situation for gays has changed significantly. Gays are notably more accepted by society these days.
    Some people still wanna party like it's 1999.

    Hell, some people still wanna party like it's 1959.

    What ya gonna do?

    In 2029, this will all be history and they will be laughing at the 1999'er's much like we laugh at the 1959'er's today.

    And the beat goes on.

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    Re: House approves repeal of 'don't ask, don't tell'(edited)

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Yes, but those incidents should not be used as excuses to keep a discriminating policy in place.
    I agree wholeheartedly.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    And, those incidents were not about violence, as much as bullying, which is really happening to almost any teenager that is different. Bullying should be dealt with, whether it happens in school or in the military, quickly and fairly. Although from my experience, the military does a much better job at dealing with bullying than high schools.
    I really hope that remains the case. I am ethically inclined to agree with you, however as one who has extensive experience with being bullied, I remain cautious. Additionally, while a lot of bullying doesn't take the form of immediate violence, some of it does and the rest is still quite capable of inflicting a lot of damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Bullying in the military is usually more about a person's ability to do their job (or lack of) or how much a person actually complains/whines about doing the job or other things. Much of the harassment that happens in the military is not due to specific characteristics. And the harassment that does happen to people because of their traits (race, sex, religion, sexuality) will mostly be verbal, not physical, unless the person is actually causing problems.
    What bullying has been about in the military up to this point is not at issue. It is what it might be in danger of becoming about in the future that I am concerned with. This issue has been blown up by our conflict-dependent media beyond reasonable proportions, and that makes it more volatile.

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    Re: House approves repeal of 'don't ask, don't tell'(edited)

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    The study was from 1999. The situation for gays has changed significantly. Gays are notably more accepted by society these days.

    Further, the actual numbers presented in this document hurt your case, with crimes based on race(over half of all hate crimes, and crimes based on religion both being more common.

    There is zero evidence that violence against gays is a significant problem in this country. While no violence would be good, it's just not going to happen. Your argument opens up denying military service based on race and religion as well as orientation using your logic.
    I think that both you and Tryreading (Boy! If that isn't oxymoronic!), should try reading more about hate crimes as they specifically relate to the LGBT community. I think it would bolster your advocacy positions for this community particularly, if you're going to support issues like the repeal of DADT. When arguing against its repeal, you would be better armed with more accurate infromation in this regard. Also, I would personally like to invite you to yet another website where, once again, it is stated that gays are less likely to report hate crimes against them. Please do check it out!

    When people commit hate crimes, they do so out of indignant moral ignorance. They feel entitled to attack the victim because the victim is representing some form of image violation that is contrary to their already established internalized standard image, that they perceive is superior.

    Defining Hate in the United States -- In These Times

    PS.

    Thus far, it would appear that you are not in the least bit aware of hate crimes as they are related to the LGBT community specifically, their frequency of being reported, the level of bullying currently taking place within our schools, or the devastating effects of both bully and hate crimes upon some of the most precious members of our society.
    Last edited by Hancock; 12-18-10 at 04:06 AM.
    ~ Knowledge is Power ~

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    Re: House approves repeal of 'don't ask, don't tell'(edited)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelzie View Post
    I don't know about slightly icky....I'm just kinda "eh" about it. In fact I'm so "eh" about it, I was surprised I found two guys to be extremely hot. I always figured guys were weirdos for liking lesbians.
    Actually, I find it extremly hot plus that a little bit of the reason I wacth Shoean Ai. Shoean Ai is guys kissing each other normaly in Japanses comic books.

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