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Health Care Reform Provision Is Unconstitutional, Federal Judge Rules

yeesh; can you imagine the growth that would take off?


but i was actually talking about healthcare spending being tax free for businesses, but not for individuals. it's an FDR thing that is still screwing the American worker (like many of his inventions) in particular and the economy in general.
 
Health insurance isn't interstate commerce? Do tell. This decision is a monument to conservative activist judges on the federal bench.
 
I read it. Took me 2 weeks to get through it.

Wow! good job, So I guess you think it's a great bill? :)


I read some and I know lots of tea partiers read it all too but I guess it's too much to ask of our politicians.
I mean what the hec, we only elect them to vote on bills, not read them.
 
How's it going Will?

I agree, on the tax thing I would love to see a flat tax and be done with it.

j-mac

I don't want to get my hopes up, but the republicans are talking of tackling tax reform real soon.
 
Yeah. This is very worrysome because without the provision that we all get insurance, its going to put the insurance companies in a very bad position, which in the end will hurt everyone.

There'll be a whole bunch of insurers dropping individual coverage. There's absolutely no way around it.
 
Wow! good job, So I guess you think it's a great bill? :)


I read some and I know lots of tea partiers read it all too but I guess it's too much to ask of our politicians.
I mean what the hec, we only elect them to vote on bills, not read them.

great in the sense of 'great big pile of ****'... yeah.
 
Before people get too excited about this, some information from the linked article:

Hudson is the first federal judge to strike down a key part of the law, which had been upheld by fellow federal judges in Virginia and Michigan. Several other lawsuits have been dismissed and still others are pending, including one filed in Florida by 20 states.

One judge out of several that have looked at this agrees it is unconstitutional. That does not bode well for the continued challenge.
 
Actually her question is right on if you actually listen to more than the likes of Olberman, Maddow, and Schultz....Or is it Malloy these days?


j-mac

Sorry...don't listen to any of the media whores (left wing or right wing). She clearly didn't have a clue what is contained in the first Amendment.
 
If you want to get 'technical', the 1st amendment was not part of the original Constitution. It was part of the Bill of Rights... it was an 'amendment' to the original Constitution.

uh....where did I ever say "original". The Bill of rights IS part of the Constitution....DOh!
 
The commerce clause is the problem. I do not see the SCOTUS saying this covered under that clause

Actually, it all depends on how the SC ultimately determines what the "pentalty" truly is - a pentalty, i.e., fine, or a tax. If a tax, the individual mandate will hold because ultimately Congress has the authority to lay taxes. And since no one can deny that private health insurance is a product one purchases at a cost, it is, in fact part of the marketplace and, therefore is commerce. From here, you really can't render health insurance "inner-state commerce" until two or more states create a joint or regional health insurance exchange. That won't happen under the health care law until 2014 when the law goes into full effect. However, the high risk pools, if formed jointly or regionally among two or more adjoining states, can set the precedence for inner-state commerce with private health insurance. If the lower district courts take this into account, it can and will change the dynamic of the legal discussion because the high risk pools being the initial "test platform" for the HIEs is part of the overall health care reform law AND people are paying into these HRPs (which are partically funded by federal grant money).

So, the bottom line is this: Is the penalty a fine or a tax? The Virgina state district court ruled that the so-called "tax" is a penalty and, therefore, Congress did not have the authority to mandate Virginia state residents to purchase health insurance. You can read the ruling here (page 3).

While this case raises a host of complex constitutional issues, all seem to distill to the single question of whether or not Congress has the power to regulate - and tax - a citizen's decision not to participate in interestate commerce.

...

No reported case from any federal appellate court has extended the Commerce Clause or Tax Clause to include the regulation of a person's decision not to purchase a product, notwithstanding its effect on interstate commerce.

I haven't read the other rulings from Michigan or the other federal judge from Virginia, but I'm willing to bet they ruled in favor of the mandate because they saw the provision as a tax on inner-state commerce.

All I can say is this is going to be interesting because earlier in the year when asked by opponents of the bill if the "penalty" was a fine or a tax, the Obama Administration said it was, in fact, a tax. If so, the states could lose especially if it is determined by the SC that the high-risk pools once formed between states AND proven to reduce health care cost OR improves the health of its participants is, in face, "inner-state commerce".

Get your popcorn ready...this is gonna be...interesting.
 
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...All I can say is this is going to be interesting because earlier in the year when asked by opponents of the bill if the "penalty" was a fine or a tax, the Obama Administration said it was, in fact, a tax. If so, the states could lose especially if it is determined by the SC that the high-risk pools once formed between states AND proven to reduce health care cost OR improves the health of its participants is, in face, "inner-state commerce".

Get your popcorn ready...this is gonna be...interesting.

from your link...
While Congress was working on the health care legislation, Mr. Obama refused to accept the argument that a mandate to buy insurance, enforced by financial penalties, was equivalent to a tax.

“For us to say that you’ve got to take a responsibility to get health insurance is absolutely not a tax increase,” the president said last September, in a spirited exchange with George Stephanopoulos on the ABC News program “This Week.”

When Mr. Stephanopoulos said the penalty appeared to fit the dictionary definition of a tax, Mr. Obama replied, “I absolutely reject that notion.”

It wasn't a tax... until it was.
 
Much ado about nothing. Even if the insurance mandate was rejected by the courts, there's a simple fix: Raise taxes, and offer people a tax credit if they have insurance. That would have the same effect, but no one would seriously be able to constitutionally challenge a tax credit.

In any case, it's a moot point. There is no way the Supreme Court buys this.
 
This may mean the whole law will have to be thrown out. Obama will now have to work with the GOP on healthcare.

means nothing of the sort....the repubs found a judge to rule for them, the dems have 2 that ruled in their favor...it will go to the supreme court....the judge who ruled for the republicans could have issued a ruling stopping implementation, but didnt...translation, he knows he isnt the final stop.
 
I haven't read the thread. How many liberals have whined about judicial activism?
 
It wasn't a tax... until it was.
Oh, I don't dispute that one bit. Even I laughed when this political flip-flop occurred. But I can understand why it was a "penalty" before it was a "tax"...

What President wants to tell the citizenry a new tax is forthcoming even if said tax would only apply to those individuals who refuse to get health insurance? Even when the intension appears to be in the best interest of the people, the People will still rebel against it right or wrong simply because it is a tax regardless of the reasons why the tax was emposed.

CORRECTION...Incomplete quote from post #63. It should have read as follows:

While this case raises a host of complex constitutional issues, all seem to distill to the single question of whether or not Congress has the power to regulate - and tax - a citizen's decision not to participate in interestate commerce.

...

No reported case from any federal appellate court has extended the Commerce Clause or Tax Clause to include the regulation of a person's decision not to purchase a product, notwithstanding its effect on interstate commerce.

...

Succinctly stated, the Commonwealth's constitutional challenge has three distinct facets. First, the Commonwealth contends that the Minimum Essential Coverage Provision, and affiliated pentalty, are beyond the outer limites of the Commerce Clause...
 
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Oh, I don't dispute that one bit. Even I laughed when this political flip-flop occurred. But I can understand why it was a "penalty" before it was a "tax"...

What President wants to tell the citizenry a new tax is forthcoming even if said tax would only apply to those individuals who refuse to get health insurance? Even when the intension appears to be in the best interest of the people, the People will still rebel against it right or wrong simply because it is a tax regardless of the reasons why the tax was emposed.

I think the flip flop was expected. Obama did not want to tell people it was a tax, so he said it wasn't. Then, when it became clear that they would not be able to use the commerce clause unless it was a tax, it was suddnely a tax again.

politicians suck.
 
don't shift the goal post on me Joe, You made a statement about the question she asked Coons, and that is what I was talking about. Now you want to come back and instead of probing where you're wrong on your point you want to broaden the original point to hide the fact that O'donell was correct, and the Socialist Coons was exposed by her question.

j-mac

Actually, no I didn't. Her comment to Coons had nothing to do with what I said. In fact, she wasn't even part of my conversation originally. You are really adding your own spin and amazed someone isn't accepting it.
 
I haven't read the thread. How many liberals have whined about judicial activism?

One, page six I think.

Personally, I'm not enormously shocked that a Republican idea would get ruled unconstitutional.
 
None of these court cases matter much till it makes it to the Supreme Court, and that's likely to take a couple years.
 
I think the flip flop was expected. Obama did not want to tell people it was a tax, so he said it wasn't. Then, when it became clear that they would not be able to use the commerce clause unless it was a tax, it was suddnely a tax again.

politicians suck.

True again. However, while I've remained of the opinion that the mandate should have remained at the state level, I support this view only because the citizens of this country refuse to accept a shared responsibility to be taxed in order to provide health care to everyone regardless of their economic standing. Still, I'm convinced that what we received was a decent compromise on the basis that many of the pitfalls (denies) in our health care system have been eliminated; however, the issue of cost reduction remains a problem. Nonetheless, I suspect the SC will rule in favor of the mandate per the circumstances address in my post #63.

So, once again, get the popcorn ready. This is going to be good.
 
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When is a loss not really so bad?

Excerpted from “Is the Hudson ruling good news for health reform?” By Ezra Klein, The Washington Post, Posted at 1:36 PM ET, 12/13/2010, with my added emphasis
… [[SIZE="+2"]W[/SIZE]]hy are health reformers so unexpectedly pleased?

There are two reasons …

Hudson ruled against the government, but he didn't stop it (you can read the full opinion here). He refused the plaintiff's request for an injunction against the legislation's continued implementation. The construction of the bill's infrastructure will continue. And second, he refused to overrule anything but the individual mandate itself.
 
Judge Who Ruled Health Care Reform Unconstitutional Owns Piece of GOP Consulting Firm | TPM LiveWire
Henry E. Hudson, the federal judge in Virginia who just ruled health care reform unconstitutional, owns between $15,000 and $50,000 in a GOP political consulting firm that worked against health care reform. You don't say!
As the Huffington Post and others first noted last July, Hudson's annual financial disclosures show that he owns a sizable chunk of Campaign Solutions, Inc., a Republican consulting firm that worked this election cycle for John Boehner, Michele Bachmann, John McCain, and a whole host of other GOP candidates who've placed the purported unconstitutionality of health care reform at the center of their political platforms. Since 2003, according to the disclosures, Hudson has earned between $32,000 and $108,000 in dividends from his shares in the firm (federal rules only require judges to report ranges of income).
 
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