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Thread: Health Care Reform Provision Is Unconstitutional, Federal Judge Rules

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    Re: Health Care Reform Provision Is Unconstitutional, Federal Judge Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Actually her question is right on if you actually listen to more than the likes of Olberman, Maddow, and Schultz....Or is it Malloy these days?


    j-mac
    Sorry...don't listen to any of the media whores (left wing or right wing). She clearly didn't have a clue what is contained in the first Amendment.
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

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    Re: Health Care Reform Provision Is Unconstitutional, Federal Judge Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Whovian View Post
    If you want to get 'technical', the 1st amendment was not part of the original Constitution. It was part of the Bill of Rights... it was an 'amendment' to the original Constitution.
    uh....where did I ever say "original". The Bill of rights IS part of the Constitution....DOh!
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

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    Re: Health Care Reform Provision Is Unconstitutional, Federal Judge Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by ptif219 View Post
    The commerce clause is the problem. I do not see the SCOTUS saying this covered under that clause
    Actually, it all depends on how the SC ultimately determines what the "pentalty" truly is - a pentalty, i.e., fine, or a tax. If a tax, the individual mandate will hold because ultimately Congress has the authority to lay taxes. And since no one can deny that private health insurance is a product one purchases at a cost, it is, in fact part of the marketplace and, therefore is commerce. From here, you really can't render health insurance "inner-state commerce" until two or more states create a joint or regional health insurance exchange. That won't happen under the health care law until 2014 when the law goes into full effect. However, the high risk pools, if formed jointly or regionally among two or more adjoining states, can set the precedence for inner-state commerce with private health insurance. If the lower district courts take this into account, it can and will change the dynamic of the legal discussion because the high risk pools being the initial "test platform" for the HIEs is part of the overall health care reform law AND people are paying into these HRPs (which are partically funded by federal grant money).

    So, the bottom line is this: Is the penalty a fine or a tax? The Virgina state district court ruled that the so-called "tax" is a penalty and, therefore, Congress did not have the authority to mandate Virginia state residents to purchase health insurance. You can read the ruling here (page 3).

    While this case raises a host of complex constitutional issues, all seem to distill to the single question of whether or not Congress has the power to regulate - and tax - a citizen's decision not to participate in interestate commerce.

    ...

    No reported case from any federal appellate court has extended the Commerce Clause or Tax Clause to include the regulation of a person's decision not to purchase a product, notwithstanding its effect on interstate commerce.
    I haven't read the other rulings from Michigan or the other federal judge from Virginia, but I'm willing to bet they ruled in favor of the mandate because they saw the provision as a tax on inner-state commerce.

    All I can say is this is going to be interesting because earlier in the year when asked by opponents of the bill if the "penalty" was a fine or a tax, the Obama Administration said it was, in fact, a tax. If so, the states could lose especially if it is determined by the SC that the high-risk pools once formed between states AND proven to reduce health care cost OR improves the health of its participants is, in face, "inner-state commerce".

    Get your popcorn ready...this is gonna be...interesting.
    Last edited by Objective Voice; 12-13-10 at 04:44 PM.

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    Re: Health Care Reform Provision Is Unconstitutional, Federal Judge Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    ...All I can say is this is going to be interesting because earlier in the year when asked by opponents of the bill if the "penalty" was a fine or a tax, the Obama Administration said it was, in fact, a tax. If so, the states could lose especially if it is determined by the SC that the high-risk pools once formed between states AND proven to reduce health care cost OR improves the health of its participants is, in face, "inner-state commerce".

    Get your popcorn ready...this is gonna be...interesting.
    from your link...
    While Congress was working on the health care legislation, Mr. Obama refused to accept the argument that a mandate to buy insurance, enforced by financial penalties, was equivalent to a tax.

    “For us to say that you’ve got to take a responsibility to get health insurance is absolutely not a tax increase,” the president said last September, in a spirited exchange with George Stephanopoulos on the ABC News program “This Week.”

    When Mr. Stephanopoulos said the penalty appeared to fit the dictionary definition of a tax, Mr. Obama replied, “I absolutely reject that notion.”
    It wasn't a tax... until it was.

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    Re: Health Care Reform Provision Is Unconstitutional, Federal Judge Rules

    Much ado about nothing. Even if the insurance mandate was rejected by the courts, there's a simple fix: Raise taxes, and offer people a tax credit if they have insurance. That would have the same effect, but no one would seriously be able to constitutionally challenge a tax credit.

    In any case, it's a moot point. There is no way the Supreme Court buys this.
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    Re: Health Care Reform Provision Is Unconstitutional, Federal Judge Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by ptif219 View Post
    This may mean the whole law will have to be thrown out. Obama will now have to work with the GOP on healthcare.
    means nothing of the sort....the repubs found a judge to rule for them, the dems have 2 that ruled in their favor...it will go to the supreme court....the judge who ruled for the republicans could have issued a ruling stopping implementation, but didnt...translation, he knows he isnt the final stop.

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    Re: Health Care Reform Provision Is Unconstitutional, Federal Judge Rules

    I haven't read the thread. How many liberals have whined about judicial activism?

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    Re: Health Care Reform Provision Is Unconstitutional, Federal Judge Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Whovian View Post
    It wasn't a tax... until it was.
    Oh, I don't dispute that one bit. Even I laughed when this political flip-flop occurred. But I can understand why it was a "penalty" before it was a "tax"...

    What President wants to tell the citizenry a new tax is forthcoming even if said tax would only apply to those individuals who refuse to get health insurance? Even when the intension appears to be in the best interest of the people, the People will still rebel against it right or wrong simply because it is a tax regardless of the reasons why the tax was emposed.

    CORRECTION...Incomplete quote from post #63. It should have read as follows:

    While this case raises a host of complex constitutional issues, all seem to distill to the single question of whether or not Congress has the power to regulate - and tax - a citizen's decision not to participate in interestate commerce.

    ...

    No reported case from any federal appellate court has extended the Commerce Clause or Tax Clause to include the regulation of a person's decision not to purchase a product, notwithstanding its effect on interstate commerce.

    ...

    Succinctly stated, the Commonwealth's constitutional challenge has three distinct facets. First, the Commonwealth contends that the Minimum Essential Coverage Provision, and affiliated pentalty, are beyond the outer limites of the Commerce Clause...
    Last edited by Objective Voice; 12-13-10 at 04:51 PM.

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    Re: Health Care Reform Provision Is Unconstitutional, Federal Judge Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    Oh, I don't dispute that one bit. Even I laughed when this political flip-flop occurred. But I can understand why it was a "penalty" before it was a "tax"...

    What President wants to tell the citizenry a new tax is forthcoming even if said tax would only apply to those individuals who refuse to get health insurance? Even when the intension appears to be in the best interest of the people, the People will still rebel against it right or wrong simply because it is a tax regardless of the reasons why the tax was emposed.
    I think the flip flop was expected. Obama did not want to tell people it was a tax, so he said it wasn't. Then, when it became clear that they would not be able to use the commerce clause unless it was a tax, it was suddnely a tax again.

    politicians suck.

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    Re: Health Care Reform Provision Is Unconstitutional, Federal Judge Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    don't shift the goal post on me Joe, You made a statement about the question she asked Coons, and that is what I was talking about. Now you want to come back and instead of probing where you're wrong on your point you want to broaden the original point to hide the fact that O'donell was correct, and the Socialist Coons was exposed by her question.

    j-mac
    Actually, no I didn't. Her comment to Coons had nothing to do with what I said. In fact, she wasn't even part of my conversation originally. You are really adding your own spin and amazed someone isn't accepting it.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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