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Thread: Health Care Reform Provision Is Unconstitutional, Federal Judge Rules

  1. #311
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    Re: Health Care Reform Provision Is Unconstitutional, Federal Judge Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    Damned good point! That's why I believe the Florida case that struck down the mandate will eventually lose. The judge makes a very good argument concerning "inactivity", but the fact that I don't have any control over what germs may or may not enter my body or whether or not my unborn child may be born with a birth defect or that I may get injured on the job or may lose control of my car on a cold, winter's night and crash into an on-coming car or trip and fall over a rug while walking down the hall or out the door (this actually happened to a coworker of mine recently and her medical bills have sored due to this one injury; she's in her 60's so that does play into it...that old age thingy)...

    All of those things and more we just don't have much control over, if any, and are very likely to need medical attention. To me, it's not a just a matter of whether or not I have health insurance. It's "How is the health care and health insurance markets affecting my premiums to pay the cost for those who don't have insurance but still need medical attention/treatment."

    Now, in a twisted way the fed is also to blame for this by mandating that private hospitals who accept Medicaid and Medicare can't deny those who have no insurance medical care. Those individuals who don't pay their medical bills are in many ways taking advantage of this "loophole". However, there is a difference between those who simply cannot afford health insurance versus those who purposefully use ERs as their "walk-in clinics". It's the same argument against those who use abortions as a means for birth control only the difference is that young lady's choice to have an abortion doesn't affect my cost of health insurance. While both are individual choices, one affects my bottom line while the other affect my moral compus.
    So instead of holding the ones that don't pay thier bills responsible you instead want to hold the whole country responsible? That's a bit backwards, don't you think?
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  2. #312
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    Re: Health Care Reform Provision Is Unconstitutional, Federal Judge Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I tried to point this out earlier so you wouldn't go down this path, but your distinction is meaningless. If we could opt out of receiving health care when needed, then you would have a proper comparison and point, but that's not the case. just because you have the option of not driving doesn't mean the it isn't mandatory for reason , or that health care insurance isn't being argued the same way. The only difference, as I stated earlier, is that there is no way to opt out of recieving health care. if you're seriously injuried in an accident, you will recieve care. And if you're not insured, you're unlikely to be able to afford the care you will receive. So, others wil pick it up.

    You have to address the actual argument and not pretend it isn't there.
    That's the worst excuse for an "actual argument" that I've ever seen.

    Name one thing that the federal government requires each man, woman, and child to buy from private companies.

    • "The America Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." -- Alexis de Tocqueville





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    Re: Health Care Reform Provision Is Unconstitutional, Federal Judge Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    Huh? I must have missed it that wealthy people don't get cancer or have heart attacks or even die. In fact, it's the wealthy that opt for procedure after procedure and end up in a very expensive hospice in the end.

    Plus, they cost vastly more to the insurance provider because they are more likely to make their annual checkups and find things to fix. Poor people tend to ignore their health issues even if they have insurance.
    On average they do better than the poor. I never said they never get ill, but do better over all. And they can pay for bigger deductables, and even pay for more on their own.

    And no, they don't cost more. Yes, they make those things, but those are cheap comparatively. Poor people ignore largely because they have fewer options.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Health Care Reform Provision Is Unconstitutional, Federal Judge Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    That's the worst excuse for an "actual argument" that I've ever seen.

    Name one thing that the federal government requires each man, woman, and child to buy from private companies.
    You're still ingoring the argument. Who pays if you're hurt and you don't have insurance and can't pay? Answer that if you will.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Health Care Reform Provision Is Unconstitutional, Federal Judge Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    Basically a public option (which is where this is intended to go, make no mistake) would be Medicare on steroids.
    Maybe, but we ain't there yet...not until the vast majority of this nation's citizens agree that it's far more effective to be taxed for health care coverage/treatment while allowing the private health care system to remain in tact. That's the only way universal health care will ever come into existence here.

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    Re: Health Care Reform Provision Is Unconstitutional, Federal Judge Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    You're still ingoring the argument. Who pays if you're hurt and you don't have insurance and can't pay? Answer that if you will.
    I asked you a question first. I won't let you play your usual game of weaseling out of questions you can't or won't answer.

    • "The America Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." -- Alexis de Tocqueville





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    Re: Health Care Reform Provision Is Unconstitutional, Federal Judge Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I tried to point this out earlier so you wouldn't go down this path, but your distinction is meaningless. If we could opt out of receiving health care when needed, then you would have a proper comparison and point, but that's not the case. just because you have the option of not driving doesn't mean the it isn't mandatory for reason , or that health care insurance isn't being argued the same way. The only difference, as I stated earlier, is that there is no way to opt out of recieving health care. if you're seriously injuried in an accident, you will recieve care. And if you're not insured, you're unlikely to be able to afford the care you will receive. So, others wil pick it up.

    You have to address the actual argument and not pretend it isn't there.
    Umm...you DO have the option of opting out of health care. Who ever said that you didn't? It happens all the time. I don't take my kids to the hospital every time that they get sick. See, you can opt out. I don't go to the hospital every time I'm sick. I'm sure that millions of other people do too.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

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    Re: Health Care Reform Provision Is Unconstitutional, Federal Judge Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    I asked you a question first. I won't let you play your usual game of weaseling out of questions you can't or won't answer.
    The answer is essential in answering your question. The reason this is argued is because we pay for those who act irresponsible. As I have said, a public option would have been better, and a single payer even better, but let's not lose sight of what is being argued. We have mandatory auot insurance to protect others from the irresponsible drivers who drive uninsured. This is the same rational for having mandatory health insurance. Unless you can opt out by assuring you will never use services you can't pay for, whihc would be few, and thos epeople likley insured anyway, you need health insurance. So the argument is the same, and it is the same regardless of how many it effects.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Health Care Reform Provision Is Unconstitutional, Federal Judge Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Umm...you DO have the option of opting out of health care. Who ever said that you didn't? It happens all the time. I don't take my kids to the hospital every time that they get sick. See, you can opt out. I don't go to the hospital every time I'm sick. I'm sure that millions of other people do too.
    Can you assure you won't use health care? A car's easy. Just don't have one or drive one. If you do, and you're unisured, there's a serious fine.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Health Care Reform Provision Is Unconstitutional, Federal Judge Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    So instead of holding the ones that don't pay thier bills responsible you instead want to hold the whole country responsible? That's a bit backwards, don't you think?
    "The needs of the many outweight the needs of the few or the one."

    It may sound crazy, but that's pretty much what's starting to happen in our health care system. The "many" are those who pay health care premiums. The "few" arguably are those on Medicaid (or Medicare, except I think it could be argued our senior citizens have paid their dues toward the health care system either by having been a former participant while part of the working class or via paying into SSN) and the "one" being that individual who's merely taking advantage of the system, thereby raising our rates.

    Now, I agree with you that it would be beneficial to us all if hospitals did go after those individuals who don't pay, but there again is the rub. Hospitals would simply pass on those cost to their paying customers - the insured - especially if they can't find those individuals who welched out on the deal OR it turns out the non-paying customer somehow won his case against the medical facility. Thus, we're right back where we started.

    And again, I don't think the entire country can be held responsible when the legislation only calls for enforcement of the mandate when two states form HIEs and provide nationwide insurance to those joined states - atleast that's the way I understand how the mandate would work. I'll have to read those sections of the law to be certain, but for now I'd say most people have a false notion of how the law would work where the mandate is concerned. Still, until I review the law and see how the mechnism does in fact work, I can't say for certain you're absolutely wrong and I'm absolutely right.
    Last edited by Objective Voice; 12-21-10 at 02:23 PM.

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