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Thread: Health Care Reform Provision Is Unconstitutional, Federal Judge Rules

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    Re: Health Care Reform Provision Is Unconstitutional, Federal Judge Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    Say bye, bye to the best and brightest going to medical school. A huge percentage of today's doctors would simply refuse to participate, or they'd retire tomorrow.

    That would be a catastrophe of the highest order.
    I understand your concerns and attempted to address such in this thread; nonetheless, the only way the federal government controls the health care system is if they control the entirety of the health care system and not just a small fraction of it. In other words, if the government owned hospitals, medical training facilities (i.e., medical universities), and actually paid doctor's salaries AND controlled pharmacuetical companies, I could understand your fears. It's this path towards complete and utter control that has alot of people worried. But fear not. That's not what's happening here with health care reform legislation.

    The only thing this bill attempts to do is broaden access to health insurance, set fair and equitable standards in health insurance policies at varying benefit levels, and ensure that everyone receives health care at fair market prices. The fed isn't setting the cost of health care in any way, shape or form. It's just attempting to ensure that those who do have health insurance aren't paying threw the nose for it because the health care industry has manipulated the cost of insurance, treatment services and medicines and made it so expensive that not everyone can get insurance.

    Let's keep it in perspective...
    Last edited by Objective Voice; 12-21-10 at 01:54 PM.

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    Re: Health Care Reform Provision Is Unconstitutional, Federal Judge Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    It's very simple to not have auto insurance. Just don't own a car or drive one.

    Now, tell me, how exactly am I suppose to not have health insurance?

    See the difference? One you can opt out of. The other you cannot. Major differences. One you opt out of. The other you pay for as long as you breath. Major differences.

    Sorry, but the car insurance excuse was an ill concieved idea considering you...oh yeah...DON'T HAVE TO HAVE IT! Do I have a choice in weather or not I breath? No? Do I have a choice in weather I can drive? Yes.
    Damned good point! That's why I believe the Florida case that struck down the mandate will eventually lose. The judge makes a very good argument concerning "inactivity", but the fact that I don't have any control over what germs may or may not enter my body or whether or not my unborn child may be born with a birth defect or that I may get injured on the job or may lose control of my car on a cold, winter's night and crash into an on-coming car or trip and fall over a rug while walking down the hall or out the door (this actually happened to a coworker of mine recently and her medical bills have sored due to this one injury; she's in her 60's so that does play into it...that old age thingy)...

    All of those things and more we just don't have much control over, if any, and are very likely to need medical attention. To me, it's not a just a matter of whether or not I have health insurance. It's "How is the health care and health insurance markets affecting my premiums to pay the cost for those who don't have insurance but still need medical attention/treatment."

    Now, in a twisted way the fed is also to blame for this by mandating that private hospitals who accept Medicaid and Medicare can't deny those who have no insurance medical care. Those individuals who don't pay their medical bills are in many ways taking advantage of this "loophole". However, there is a difference between those who simply cannot afford health insurance versus those who purposefully use ERs as their "walk-in clinics". It's the same argument against those who use abortions as a means for birth control only the difference is that young lady's choice to have an abortion doesn't affect my cost of health insurance. While both are individual choices, one affects my bottom line while the other affect my moral compus.
    Last edited by Objective Voice; 12-21-10 at 01:55 PM.

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    Re: Health Care Reform Provision Is Unconstitutional, Federal Judge Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    I understand your concerns and attempted to address such in this thread; nonetheless, the only way the federal government controls the health care system is if they control the entirety of the health care system and not just a small fraction of it. In other words, if the government owned hospitals, medical training facilities (i.e., medical universities), and actually paid doctor's salaries AND controlled pharmacuetical companies, I could understand your fears. It's this path towards complete and utter control that has alot of people worried. But fear not. That's not what's happening here with health care reform legislation. The only thing this bill attempts to do is broaden access to health insurance, set fair and equitable standards in health insurance policies at varying benefit levels, and ensure that everyone receives health care at fair market prices. The fed isn't setting the cost of health care in any way, shape or form. It's just attempting to ensure that those who do have health insurance aren't paying threw the nose for it because the health care industry has manipulated the cost of insurance, treatment services and medicines and made it so expensive that not everyone can get insurance.

    Let's keep it in perspective...
    But he who controls the money, controls it all.

    Do you know how unbelievably hard it is for doctors to collect from medicare for the simplest of things?

    How long until they are able to dictate salaries by dictating what doctors can charge?
    Last edited by Erod; 12-21-10 at 01:54 PM.

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    Re: Health Care Reform Provision Is Unconstitutional, Federal Judge Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    Say bye, bye to the best and brightest going to medical school. A huge percentage of today's doctors would simply refuse to participate, or they'd retire tomorrow.

    That would be a catastrophe of the highest order.
    I talk to doctors a lot, and you're likely wrong about that. Most would accept one as long as it was two teired, meaning that you had a single payer for most, but with the ability to buy more on your own. The wealthy will always do a little better, but we need to make sure all of us have adequate care.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Health Care Reform Provision Is Unconstitutional, Federal Judge Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    It's very simple to not have auto insurance. Just don't own a car or drive one.

    Now, tell me, how exactly am I suppose to not have health insurance?

    See the difference? One you can opt out of. The other you cannot. Major differences. One you opt out of. The other you pay for as long as you breath. Major differences.

    Sorry, but the car insurance excuse was an ill concieved idea considering you...oh yeah...DON'T HAVE TO HAVE IT! Do I have a choice in weather or not I breath? No? Do I have a choice in weather I can drive? Yes.
    I tried to point this out earlier so you wouldn't go down this path, but your distinction is meaningless. If we could opt out of receiving health care when needed, then you would have a proper comparison and point, but that's not the case. just because you have the option of not driving doesn't mean the it isn't mandatory for reason , or that health care insurance isn't being argued the same way. The only difference, as I stated earlier, is that there is no way to opt out of recieving health care. if you're seriously injuried in an accident, you will recieve care. And if you're not insured, you're unlikely to be able to afford the care you will receive. So, others wil pick it up.

    You have to address the actual argument and not pretend it isn't there.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Health Care Reform Provision Is Unconstitutional, Federal Judge Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I talk to doctors a lot, and you're likely wrong about that. Most would accept one as long as it was two teired, meaning that you had a single payer for most, but with the ability to buy more on your own. The wealthy will always do a little better, but we need to make sure all of us have adequate care.
    There is no way a private insurance company that has to make a profit can compete with a government agency, which can lose money in droves and just print more.

    Insurance companies require large pools of people to hedge itself and remain viable. Most of that comes from employer plans, and most companies would choose just not to offer insurance to their employees at all.

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    Re: Health Care Reform Provision Is Unconstitutional, Federal Judge Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    There is no way a private insurance company that has to make a profit can compete with a government agency, which can lose money in droves and just print more.

    Insurance companies require large pools of people to hedge itself and remain viable. Most of that comes from employer plans, and most companies would choose just not to offer insurance to their employees at all.
    Not true, but they don't have to. They want well people who won't need their services. Wealthier people fit that criteria the most. They would actually make more profit in a two teired system. And there would be no mandate. It would also remove insurance from the employer and help with international competition, helping the economy.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Health Care Reform Provision Is Unconstitutional, Federal Judge Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    But he who controls the money, controls it all.

    Do you know how unbelievably hard it is for doctors to collect from medicare for the simplest of things?

    How long until they are able to dictate salaries by dictating what doctors can charge?
    But that's ONLY for Medicare patients and has nothing to do with those patients who do have health care as acquired via the private sector. Doctors who run private clinics can refuse to see Medicare and Medicaid patients which had already begun before health care legislationo was enacted. However, the new law increases the payout to doctors who see such patients. So, it's a moot point.

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    Re: Health Care Reform Provision Is Unconstitutional, Federal Judge Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Not true, but they don't have to. They want well people who won't need their services. Wealthier people fit that criteria the most. They would actually make more profit in a two teired system. And there would be no mandate. It would also remove insurance from the employer and help with international competition, helping the economy.
    Huh? I must have missed it that wealthy people don't get cancer or have heart attacks or even die. In fact, it's the wealthy that opt for procedure after procedure and end up in a very expensive hospice in the end.

    Plus, they cost vastly more to the insurance provider because they are more likely to make their annual checkups and find things to fix. Poor people tend to ignore their health issues even if they have insurance.

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    Re: Health Care Reform Provision Is Unconstitutional, Federal Judge Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    But that's ONLY for Medicare patients and has nothing to do with those patients who do have health care as acquired via the private sector. Doctors who run private clinics can refuse to see Medicare and Medicaid patients which had already begun before health care legislationo was enacted. However, the new law increases the payout to doctors who see such patients. So, it's a moot point.
    Basically a public option (which is where this is intended to go, make no mistake) would be Medicare on steroids.

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